Am I wrong to have changed my mind?

I changed my mind on gun ownership after John Humphreys reminded me where the onus of proof lies. It lies on those who want to restrict our ability to defend or deter aggressors. Of course, on utilitarian grounds the work of John Lott and others provides evidence to support the LDP case too. As a matter of principle though, whatever inconveniences freedom may cause are better than having no freedom at all.

It should be the same with any government action seeking to limit freedom.

A part of the problem is that whenever we hear about a Port Arthur 1996 or a Monash University shooting 2002, we don’t hear about the many incidents where weak/law-abiding people who needed a weapon to defend themselves have been unable to. These people have either been killed or injured by criminals and don’t have nearly as much lobbying power. The positives of gun ownership tend to not be given as much attention as the negatives. In America, far more little kids drown in unsupervised swimming pools than shoot themselves from a gun lying around the house (Steven Levitt). But it’s usually the gun incidents that get the media attention.

I would liken banning gun ownership to statutory product safety commissions that play it safe and ban products that, in the view of some bureaucrat, carries ‘unacceptable’ risk, in the process denying many the chance to take drugs that while risky offer some benefits. We only hear the bad cases of where the risk eventuated, hardly ever the cases where because some bureaucrat decided a product is unsafe, someone’s life was made worse off. This sort of pre-emptive ‘justice’ is not justice. Once the risk eventuates, let the person pursue the manufacturer through the courts, as is their right.

It should be left to individuals to make informed choices knowing the risks. Government can certainly be involved in educating people about responsible gun ownership.

Here is an excellent article for those unconvinced.

One of the interesting arguments against legalising gun ownership is the ‘arms race’ one, i.e. if pistols or AK-47s are legalised, criminals come at you with rocket launchers, if rocket launchers are legalised, they come at you with nukes. But that’s just silly.

The answer of course, is not to ban guns, it’s to put in place policies that improve socio-economic status of the greatest number, reducing the potential number of criminals. It’s to legalise certain illicit drugs and destroy the blackmarket which is inextricably linked to guns. It’s to stop taxing cigarettes and driving people towards illicit tobacco where the money goes towards terrorist groups. It’s to allow free abortions so low income mothers have the choice to not raise their child in an environment of depravity that increases the potential for future criminal behaviour.

Then we can talk ‘arms race’.

Update:  Jono writes, ‘But if crime gangs used firearms to hold up stores, or break in to homes, then these measures might not be enough. Shouldn’t it be up to the individual to decide if they need to have a firearm stored away safely for such emergencies?’ 

Self-defence against someone threatening bodily injury is one thing. But defending yourself against someone stealing your stuff is quite another. Life is more important than property. So legal principles of proportionate and reasonable response would require you to remove yourself from a potentially dangerous situation and not shoot someone just because they demand your wallet. That’s a qualifier that could perhaps be explicitly stated in the LDP policy.  

58 thoughts on “Am I wrong to have changed my mind?

  1. Nice theory. Pity it doesn’t work in practice. The US being the best example. Unfortunately we can’t assume everyone is intelligent and reasonable. Like when Daddy forgets to lock the gun cabinet and junior takes the magnum to kinder. I’d regard that as an infringement of my freedom.

    And remember, guns don’t kill people, people with moustaches and guns do!

  2. It’s true Daddy’s freedom has conflicted with yours/your kid’s, but Daddy will be facing criminal charges and civil liability in negligence. Can a small number of irresponsible Daddy-o’s be cited as justification for a blanket ban on the rest of the population? On that, I’m inclined to say no.

  3. Criminal charges and civil liability isn’t much compensation for my freedom when my junior is dead as a result of Daddy-o’s negligence.

    I thought Michael Moore covered it pretty well in Bowling for Columbine. From examining violent death by firearm stats for countries like Australia, UK and Canada vs the US I think it can be reasonably argued that the net infringment of freedom when guns go wrong is greater than that imposed by restricting the use of AK47s and rocket launchers for purposes of domestic self-defense.

    But if you really need a rocket launcher to feel safe, I’m sure you could get one through the internet!

  4. It’s to allow free abortions so low income mothers have the choice to not raise their child in an environment of depravity that increases the potential for future criminal behaviour.

    Newsflash: LDP advocate pre-emptive euthanasia

    The answer to socio-economic problems is not abortion, especially free abortion, unless of course you out of your empathy to the downtrodden are going to voluntarily pay to scrape their future offspring from their wombs?

    Gun ownership should simply be unfettered, any attempt to qualify it with statements like So legal principles of proportionate and reasonable response would require you to remove yourself from a potentially dangerous situation and not shoot someone just because they demand your wallet are unenforcible.

  5. From examining violent death by firearm stats for countries like Australia, UK and Canada vs the US I think it can be reasonably argued that the net infringment of freedom when guns go wrong is greater than that imposed by restricting the use of AK47s and rocket launchers for purposes of domestic self-defense.

    Those that oppose wide spread gun ownership always point to the USA. Then never seem to point to nations like Switzerland and Sweden where gun ownership is widespread but homocide is low.

    The incident of homocide in the USA using means other than guns (ie total homocide by poisoning, knife attack, physical bashing etc) is also higher in the USA then in many comparable nations. This demonstrates that the higher level of gun homocide in the USA has more to do with factors other than means (eg motive).

    If you normalise firearm homocide against non-firearm homocide to filter out the effect of all those other factors that drive the homocide rate then you find that nations with liberal gun laws are not worse off than nations with strict gun laws.

    Also given that the US is a more violent society (as confirmed by the high level of non-firearm homocide) then there is more motivation to own a gun on the simple grounds of self defence.

    I cancelled my Amnesty subscription once I read what they advocate on guns. It is attrocious for an organisation with a stated objective of keeping an eye on the abuses of government power to be advocating that in violent countries government power should be used to create a ban on such a basic means of personal self defence. Tell me that if you had to live in Bagdad you wouldn’t want to own a hand gun.

  6. But I don’t live in Bagdad, I live in urban Australia. Time, place and circumstance need to be considered.

    I regularly meet my fellow citizens in all kinds of situations where I wouldn’t feel safe or free if some of them had the unfettered right to pack heat. Road rage is just one context which springs to mind. I’ve had many experiences where I’d feel more comfortable by protection of law than relying on the intelligence and goodwill of some of my fellow citizens.

    So do you walk around armed? Have your piece at the ready while you’re at home? Or is just the principal of the thing?

    I’d certainly be uncomfortable if my next-door neighbour had an AK47 and a back-up rocket launcher in reserve. Our dispute about overhanging foliage might not have been resolved so amicably. Or more to the point, I would probably have been intimidated sufficiently to not attempt negotiation or felt obliged to bring in professionals to do it on my behalf.

    But on a more serious point, I don’t know if launching a serious political party by exploiting the pro-gun, pro-speeding lobby is that good for encouraging support for your more serious policies.

  7. Slim,

    You are ducking the point. The point was that firearm homocide being higher in the US says nothing about the effects of gun regulation because other forms of homocide unrelated to guns is also proportionally higher.

    If your neighbour wanted to kill you due to a dispute about overhanging foliage they could could probably do the job simple by jabing you with a knife or running you down in the driveway. Owning a gun does not turn somebody into a murderer. Murder requires motive, means and opportunity and motive is amost always the primary factor. I find it highly unlikely that your overhanging foliage issue was resolved amicably due to firearm regulation. Do you really believe that if your neighbour at the time owned an AK47 they would have proceeded differently?

    Regards,
    Terje.

  8. But on a more serious point, I don’t know if launching a serious political party by exploiting the pro-gun, pro-speeding lobby is that good for encouraging support for your more serious policies.

    If a party that stands for freedom does not take up the case of those that are oppressed without due cause, then what is the point of such a party?

  9. Not ducking the point any more than you are. Do you carry a weapon, or just like the idea of being free to do so?

    I just can’t see the benefit of 20 million Australians packing heat 24/7. We can argue around the edges of this, but where is the evidence that freedom to carry AK47s and rocket launchers results in a less violent society? Indeed, I am sure you are well aware of the difficulties of attributing causation to correlated observations. It’s a hard call either way.

    I agree motive is almost always the primary factor. But I’ve also been in a situation at a music festival, playing with other musicians in a bar, when a young drunken local took exception to our inability and unwillingness to play whatever it was he was requesting. He became so violently aggressive, that I think he would have pulled a gun, if he’d been carrying one. Within five minutes he’d punched a woman out cold.

    I respect the idea of freedom of choice, but I would feel that my freedom would be endangered by deranged individuals, possibly lacking intelligence and social skills, and with an aggressive attitude, carrying any kind of gun, let alone an AK47 or a rocket launcher.

    Freedom of choice is fundamentally part of the human condition. But any choice we make has the potential to impact directly or indirectly on others, intended or unintended. Still trying to comprehend the notion that civil well being can arise simply from the sum of our individual choices. And even if it’s true, it doesn’t reflect the complexity of the world we live in.

    So we have some minimal laws and judicial processes to protect our freedoms, which paradoxically are an infringement of our liberties. And therein lies the dilemma. I’d suggest it’s not a clear cut situation. Sure it’s an attitude we can adopt or aspire to, but those minimal necessary infringements (like those pesky traffic laws we’re debating at the other place) are always going to require thoughtful analysis by people of good intent. And when you introduce into the mix self-interested, or corrupt politicians and players who don’t have good intent it sure gets complicated.

    Democracy – you gotta love it!

  10. “The answer to socio-economic problems is not abortion, especially free abortion, unless of course you out of your empathy to the downtrodden are going to voluntarily pay to scrape their future offspring from their wombs?”

    I meant free abortions in the sense that governments should not regulate – except perhaps some late term abortions? – personal decisions that are essentially a discretionary matter between doctors and patients. Those wanting abortions should pay for it themselves, as I have written previously. Unless someone persuades me otherwise, I can’t understand why governments should subsidise abortion.

    Slim, what you seem to be asking for is pre-emptive justice. That is, you want to ban guns because there is a possibility that negative externalities (ie. kids going on shooting rampages because of irresponsible fathers) will be created.

    But the criminal liability and causes of action in tort would seem to offset the externality you mentioned. As far as I know, these negative externalities are small in number. You could argue that wrongdoers aren’t bearing the full cost of the externality created because of legislative caps imposed on damages, but that’s another story.

    I, on the other hand, prefer to wait for the externality to eventuate and for those injured to redress their injury through the courts. You’re right that it can be considered unfair for the individual who must live with their injuries, however banning guns for law abiding citizens is not the answer.

    Give the government an inch and it will take a mile.

  11. Whoa – that’s a lot of legal concepts for one untrained in that particular art!

    Pre-emptive justice eh? Nah.. I was just thinking it was common sense not to have deranged individuals running around with guns. Negative externalities do happen.

    Not convinced that criminal causes of action in tort will offset the negative externality of my neighbour taking off a limb or two with his rocket launcher. I can see how it balances in theory but it won’t restore my limbs and eradicate my consequent trauma. Seems like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

    Would it be OK to keep an ICBM in my backyard, just in case of an unexpected negative externality?

  12. It is common sense that we can’t have deranged individuals running around with guns.

    However, it is not (!) common sense to suggest that we should effectively pre-empt the deranged individuals of this world in a way that imposes government fiat on the rest of us law abiding folk.

    We already have ‘common sense’ laws that say you can be locked up for homicide, and sued for wrongful death.

    These focus on punishing the outcome of irresponsible usage of a powerful weapon, not punishing the responsible ownership of such a weapon (which, by itself, can cause no impairment to human life).

    Seems like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

    Seems to me that you could justify a lot of coercive government action by pre-emptively legislating away risk.

    I agree 100% that it might not seem like justice for the individual concerned after they’ve been shot, but can you see why it would be unfair to punish the rest of us for the actions of a deranged individual?

    So here’s the part where I ask you one imporant thing: what’s the problem here ‘nway? The individual or the gun?

  13. Do you carry a weapon, or just like the idea of being free to do so?

    I don’t carry a gun and I don’t want to carry a gun. I do want to be free to carry a gun if I decide to.

    Likewise I am not homosexual and I don’t want to be homosexual however if I did decide to be homosexual things then I don’t think the law should prevent it.

    There are lots of freedoms that I would defend but which I don’t personally intend to avail myself of.

  14. Would it be OK to keep an ICBM in my backyard, just in case of an unexpected negative externality?

    You’d have to be pretty wealthy to be able to afford a nuclear weapon if these things were freely available on the market. The arms race was/is perpetuated by nation states, only they have the resources to develop such weapons. It is only rational from the perspective of the leader of a state to pursue weapons, for individuals the cost benefit analysis is entirely zero.

    The problem with arguing that unfettered gun ownership would lead to deranged individuals to shooting up schools negates the fact that nothing seems to stop that from happening now, even in states like Canada where gun ownership is restricted. Terje’s point regarding the relative violence levels cannot be ignored, and neither can self defence.

  15. The individual or the gun? hmm…

    For my money it would very much depend on the individual as well as the gun.

    I thought that any law-abiding citizen can obtain a gun under the present system which involves some cursory background check on the fitness of the individual. But an AK47 or a rocket launcher?

    Martin Bryant (who lived 2 doors from the family home of my late wife) was also a law-abiding citizen before his Port Arthur spree (and my former Brother in Law by my sister was his State appointed forensic psychiatrist – that’s Tasmania for ya). It’s always the way – the obligatory TV interviews with the neighbours. “He just seemed like a nice, quiet, courteous young man really. Who would have thought it…”

    If Bryant had acted out his issues with bare knuckles, a stale salami or even a knife, he would not have been able to affect such disproportionate mayhem, carnage and tragedy.

    For me it’s a question of degree. One on one is one thing. Roll up your sleeves and give me your best shot. But one person with a weapon that can take out dozens in an instance, I’d want to be pretty sure how law-abiding they really were, even to the extent of evaluating how likely it would be that the person remained a law-abiding citizen.

    I consider myself libertarian in many matters and it’s often gotten me into trouble. But it’s not a theological position or absolute faith that it is applicable in any and all circumstances. I can see where there are reasonable limits.

    I also support the freedom of people to express their sexuality however they wish between consenting adults. My best-man and one time close friend is gay. But if he wanted to pack an AK47, I’d have an issue with him.

  16. Slim,

    Under current law you can’t obtain a firearm if the stated purpose is self defence.

    I agree that we need to consider the externalities. However if you are going to limit liberty with laws you should have to demonstrate a net benefit. I have not seen any such benefit demonstrated with most of our firearm laws and there is a clear loss of liberty. I’m not adverse to background checks and cooling off periods if it can be demonstrated that they make a difference. I’m not adverse to reasoned arguments as opposed to political correctness and sentimentalism.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  17. Terje,

    I concur – the net benefit is what it comes down to. And, as you know, that’s the tricky bit. Circumstances can change, human behaviour can change, and I suspect striking the right balance will be a fine balancing act requiring vigilance by people of good and fair intent.

    I’ve enjoyed my visit here. Much more civilised than some of the folk I’ve encountered at some other blogs. At least there is some discourse here, uninterrupted by inflammatory hysteria and mindless repetition of unsubstantiated assertions.

    As a political blog surfer, I’m sure I’ll be back when the mood or issue inspires.

    Cheers

    Slim

  18. The issue here shouldn’t be the “right to carry a gun” per se, but the “right to carry a gun on one’s own property, or on another’s by consent”. It’s a private property issue first and foremost. I don’t think the right to bear arms necessarily implies the “right” to carry a gun on public property.

  19. “Those that oppose wide spread gun ownership always point to the USA. Then never seem to point to nations like Switzerland and Sweden where gun ownership is widespread but homocide is low. ”

    “Also given that the US is a more violent society (as confirmed by the high level of non-firearm homocide) then there is more motivation to own a gun on the simple grounds of self defence.”

    Statistically, Australia has one of the highest crime rates in the Western world — including a higher violent crime rate than the US. In this respect, Australia is far more like the US than Switzerland and Sweden (both these countries have comparitively low crime rates), so it isn’t very surprising that people compare Australia to the US, and not low crime Northern European countries.

  20. If Bryant had acted out his issues with bare knuckles, a stale salami or even a knife, he would not have been able to affect such disproportionate mayhem, carnage and tragedy.

    And if Bryant had acted out his issues by driving a 10-tonne truck through a busy pedestrian mall, he would have killed even more people.

    So should we also ban trucks?

  21. Conrad,

    My comments related predominantly to homocide. It may be true that some of the European nations I mentioned are less violent than Australia however they also have widespread gun ownership. So the point is that lawlessness and violence are not be correlate with gun ownership. If you are to test for such a correlation then you are going to want to include in your study a wide selection of countries for which their is reliable data. It is unreasonable simplistic to limit the comparison to two countries (Australia and the USA) and to note that the USA has more homocide and more guns and then conclude that guns cause violence.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  22. No, don’t ban trucks – just AK47s for domestic use. Society can function quite well without AK47s, not so trucks. You can kill with a truck, but that’s not its primary function. Not so with AK47s.

    Let’s be sensible!

  23. I don’t think the right to bear arms necessarily implies the “right” to carry a gun on public property.

    True, I think it’s reasonable to not be able to bring a gun into the Prime Minister’s lodge or the Supreme Court, just as I presumably couldn’t bring a gun onto the private property of Microsoft or Google, or the local pub if they have a no-gun Tuesdays policy. Or if my insurance company won’t insure me for life insurance because I’m a gun toting kind of guy (I’m not).

    But, in general, concealed carry for self-defence with appropriate background checks still sounds okay to me.

    For me it’s a question of degree. One on one is one thing. Roll up your sleeves and give me your best shot. But one person with a weapon that can take out dozens in an instance

    A gun can be used as a deterrence without firing a single shot – you can carry it around unloaded if you want, but at least you had the ability to deter when the situation called for it. Not everyone is as capable of getting involved in a punch-on.

    But if you pulled a gun without first attempting to remove yourself from the situation as a reasonable person would do, I suspect a court would find you in fault. Aggressive gun-play is not part of reasonable behaviour. A weapon should only be used defensively as a last resort. These can be stated clearly in law.

    To take your example above with the drunk, the situation might have escalated if someone pulled a gun to deter him (and he had a gun too). So some common sense is needed depending on the situation. If people overstep common law boundaries of reasonableness I would hope penalties would apply. It’s the same with any dangerous activity.

    We need to trust individuals to make these decisions rather than the government deciding on our behalf that we’re all too irresponsible.

  24. For me it’s a question of degree. One on one is one thing. Roll up your sleeves and give me your best shot. But one person with a weapon that can take out dozens in an instance.

    I don’t think this is really a clear reflection of reality. We sometimes tend to underestimate, or at least ‘gloss over’, the number of people killed or permanently injured by being bashed and kicked with nothing but hands and feet. Then add to that people bashed with blunt instruments. Then add to that people stabbed with commonly found sharp items. The idea that if we remove firearms we will eliminate the opportunity to apply extreme violence is a complete myth. People with criminal intentions regularly do serious or lethal damage without firearms, that would not be any worse if they had a firearm.

  25. Apart from the insurance angle, social norms are more influential than many people think. Someone in this thread or another mentioned something along the lines of they wouldn’t be friends with someone who owns a gun. That’s social pressure on the gun owning individual right there.

    The value with which we hold our reputation is an inhibiting factor.

    Still trying to comprehend the notion that civil well being can arise simply from the sum of our individual choices. And even if it’s true, it doesn’t reflect the complexity of the world we live in.

    I find it useful to recognise the complexity of the individual and the different forces – other than the law – that shape individuals’ behaviour.

    Brendan: my understanding is that principles of reasonable and proportionate response are enforcable from the sworn facts of a case. It happens in the controlled environment of a court. Read Rozsa v Samuels [1969] Supreme Ct. of South Australia for an example.

  26. People are not inherently evil or mischevious. If automatic weapons were made legal I personally don’t know anyone including myself that would get one because they are dangerous and expensive.
    Currently only criminals and authorities have guns. Gun laws will never be able to stop this. So if you feel safer simply because Australia has strict gun control laws, you are deluded.
    Guns are dangerous and are useless to most people. These factors ensure they will also be unpopular and expensive.
    The other concern I have is that the control of guns is always performed by the state. Legislation, regulation, fines, government departments etc are all paid for by the taxpayer and are a waste of money and effort. Regulation is useless and yet another drain on the economy which leads to less productivity of society and a lower standard of living. Regulation is forced (ultimately by guns and jails) and immoral. Like so many instances, public servants in government departments could be doing something of real value instead of inventing problems where none exist in order to increase their own funding and illusion of self worth.

  27. Terje,

    I agree with you than you need a decent sample to test the prediction of gun ownership equating to more gun violence. However, the problem is the real test is to take a violent nation without huge amounts of guns (like Australia), and see what happens when you introduce them. With this there isn’t enough data, and there isn’t much going back once you have done the test. In addition, the fact that not much homicide occurs in societies with very low violent crime rates isn’t surprising nor a convincing argument unless you use overall violent crime rate as a covariate. My bet is that there is a weak relationship between homicide levels and gun ownership once this is controlled (even if only because guns make people easier to kill), althogh if there was some real data I’d be willing to believe otherwise.

  28. Conrad,

    I don’t think the sort of test you propose is really achievable in any applicable way. My statement was limited to looking for a corellation between gun ownership and violence. Even if you find such a correlation it’s not clear which way the causation runs. To do a controlled transition analysis such as you propose is unlikely to be possible. My position is based on the data that I have seen that demonstrates that:-

    1. Gun related homocide generally increases in tandem with other sorts of homocide and that there is no clear causal linkage from firearm laws to murder.

    2. Some anecdotal evidence that conceal and carry laws lead to a decline in theft.

    Of course if persuasive evidence were presented to justify limitations on the liberty of gun owners then I would be open to reviewing my position. However I have yet to see anything convincing.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  29. Slim, a pro-gun stance echoed by libertarians doesn’t have anything to do with them getting a good feeling by walking around with a firearm. It has to do with giving freedom and liberty to all individuals.

    Why should we get into the personal details of what each person values and has to deal with in order to define what level of regulation should exist in the firearm industry ?

    The general principle being argued for, is that people should have the freedom to decide, because they are faced with the best set of information and knowledge about their own circumstances – not a bureaucrat or politician.

    This is Australia not Baghdad, but not all suburbs are the same, some have more criminal activity and gun related crimes than others.

    As for my self, if anti-gun laws disappeared, I still wouldn’t consider buying a firearm. But circumstances can easily change, and if I were faced with criminals wielding firearms, I wouldn’t put my faith in the police force to protect me.

  30. What Jono said. It’s not smart to make assumptions about peoples’ motives unless you know them personally. Yes, many libertarians are gun owners. A larger number are not. Consider how you would have felt if the state decided you were a potential Martin Bryant based purely on an item of property you owned.

  31. My comments related predominantly to homocide. It may be true that some of the European nations I mentioned are less violent than Australia however they also have widespread gun ownership. So the point is that lawlessness and violence are not be correlate with gun ownership. If you are to test for such a correlation then you are going to want to include in your study a wide selection of countries for which their is reliable data. It is unreasonable simplistic to limit the comparison to two countries (Australia and the USA) and to note that the USA has more homocide and more guns and then conclude that guns cause violence.

    Okay, gun violence may be linked to things other than gun ownership, but isn’t it irresponsible to be advocating loosening the restrictions when it is not clear what the other variables are and that we don’t have them in Australia?

    We have a vastly different society to Switzerland and Sweden. They have mandatory military service which, in the case of the Swiss, involves a lot of gun responsibility training, and they are socially a lot more cohesive than we are. They also have a totally different way of dealing with crime. I don’t see us adopting what could be the contributing factors to the lower homicide rates any time soon.

    In Australia (I’m not commenting on places like Iraq), apart from the need for guns in the country which is understandable and allowable under regulations, I don’t see why one person’s need to protect themselves and thereby feel safe (because the instances of actual need would be low, mostly the benefit is in peace of mind) should be valued more than another person’s need to feel safe through not having widespread gun ownership.

    If the instances of violent home invasion and other attacks became more commonplace, then it would start to tip the balance because there would be something you were actually protecting. Until then, any real attacks prevented may well be counterbalanced by accidents and deliberate offences caused by increased access to more deadly weapons.

  32. Catherine, You are still assuming that widespread gun ownership is something that is to be feared. The idea that concealed carrying will lead to shoot outs after car accidents is unfounded, as that type of loose attitude is not found in any other gun carrying country.

    If we cant walk around the street, without thinking that the other people are considering hurting or killing us, then we have much bigger problems.

  33. Catherine,

    You just said that if Australia became more violent then perhaps we should be allowed more guns. Surely that alone makes the point that high levels of gun ownership may well be a product of a violent society rather than the other way around.

    After Howard cracked down on guns there was a decline in gun suicide. However there was a comparable increase in suicide by other means. As with murder, motive dominates over means. You can kill somebody with a lump of wood as readily as with a gun. The major obstacle to murder is psychological not technical.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  34. We have a vastly different society to Switzerland and Sweden. They have mandatory military service which, in the case of the Swiss, involves a lot of gun responsibility training……..

    This is irrelevant. Let me assure you unequivocally that military service does not necessarily result in people being able to safely handle firearms. I say with 100% certainty that I would rather be around civillian shooters at my local gun club than professional soldiers carrying live ammunition! (And I have spent plenty of time in both situations!) I’m not really sure why this is the case, but I think within Australian society people who obtain privately owned firearms generally do so with the intention of using them safely and carefully. People join the military for a variety of reasons, and carrying firearms is just an obligation for some of them. If you’re talking about people who have gone through compulsory military service then it’s all just an obligation.

  35. Until then, any real attacks prevented may well be counterbalanced by accidents and deliberate offences caused by increased access to more deadly weapons.

    Another point that always comes to my mind when I hear this argument is American mass murderers. A lot of serial killers did not use firearms, yet they more efficient and effective murderers than the jerks that went on the shooting sprees. I believe we still hold the record for the highest number of deaths in a civillian shooting spree with Port Arther at 35. Mass shootings really are anomalies, but we if want to talk of anomalies we can’t ignore the Oklahoma City bombing which killed 168 with a truck full of fertilizer and automotive fuel, or the September 11 attacks on the WTC which killed 2,973, effected with box-cutter knives, pocket tools and pepper spray. A firearm is really a weapon of individual destruction. Mass murder requires methods and intent of a much more devious and sinister nature. Ironically people respond to the fear events like this generate by trying to ban firearms.

  36. Firstly, unless the gun-grabbers can actually show that civil disarmament actually affects whether or not the criminals have guns, all they say in meaningless theory.

    They may as well argue for legislation requiring the sky to be green during the day and dayglo at night. No matter how much better the world might be, it isn’t going to happen.

    Prohibitions by government have never worked, whether its booze, homosexuality, porn, firearms, or narcotics, passing a law against it doesn’t remove it from society.

    Secondly, as to the USA. Calling attention to the USA ranks as one of the most dishonest rhetorical tools used by those seeking to disarm us. The US is one of the most decentralised countries in the world, and its Constitution is not in a very happy state (“living document” and all that rubbish). There are 50 states, DC, and within them many counties, and municipalities. Many of them have vastly different gun laws.

    Treating the US as though it were a monolith can hardly be called an innocent mistake, it is an outright lie.

    Jurisdictions with more liberal gun laws, like Vermont, tend to have very little crime. Jurisdictions with more restrictive gun laws, such as the District of Columbia, or California, have vastly more crime. DC has more restrictive gun laws than the UK.

    Bringing up Martin Bryant reminds me of an interesting parallel in Israel, concerning Palestinian terrorists. They tooled up, and went to an Israeli cafe in order to shoot the place up. 2 of the terrorists were shot dead right away, the third was wounded.

    Port Arthur didn’t happen because Martin Bryant carried a gun, it happened because no one else carried a gun.

  37. We ban things, not on the basis of how dangerous they are, but on how dispensible the lawmakers/lobbyists consider them to be. How many people are killed by cars in comparison to guns – even in the USA? Yet do we ban cars for all but a select few? Or think of alcohol. Do drink-driving deaths call for alcohol bans? No, most of us agree that we will live with a liquor-drinking society and only punish those who use it in dangerous circumstances such as driving. Many of the anti-gun advocates drink alcohol so they would never consider banning that – but guns? well, they’ve always lived without owning one so why shouldn’t everyone else?

  38. It would be a better thing if guns and owners were licensed, much as driving vehicles.

    There is a world of difference between a single shot or repeater .22 rifle and a semi automatic Magnum hand gun.

    Similarly a world of difference between someone with a history of mental disturbance and an outdoors enthusiast who likes to hunt.

    And training, just like driving a car. In the past we have had many neighbours killed by gunshot, accidental discharge climbing thru a fence or cleaning.

  39. If we accept licensing and registration is an infringement of freedom then it should be minimised. And if we think individuals are behind violent crimes and not the guns themselves, then we should maintain a record of individuals not how many guns they own.

    But I’m really just thinking out loud here. Does registration of guns help in solving crimes?

  40. This is going a-ways back in the discussion, and may seem nit-picky, but although Martin Bryant may have been quiet, he was not law-abiding. He did not have a gun licence, and so was in illegal possession of all the firearms used at Port Arthur. I guess this is part of the beef I have with the more restrictive laws brought in as a result of 1996 – I can’t see how they would have prevented the event that was the catalyst for their creation. I’m also not sure that, absent Port Arthur, the community was really that concerned about firearms, but I was only in High School at the time so may not know what I’m talking about 🙂 To me it’s a bit like having to take your belt off at the airport…

    As was mentioned by another commenter, we seem willing to accept the consequences of alcohol consumption, but the rules seem to change where gun ownership is concerned. Maybe it’s because most Australians have little or no contact with firearms anymore – the debate and its consequences have no effect on them, so why not tighten the legal screws? Gun owners are all weirdos anyway (the “I wouldn’t want one so why would you?” response does seem to get a lot of airplay where guns are concerned, at least in my experience). It seems to me that laws of the kind enacted after Port Arthur punish those who by and large do the right thing. If you weren’t already complying with the law pre the buy back then there was nothing to force you to hand in your guns.

    Hopefully that made some kind of sense. I admit I haven’t worked out exactly where I sit in the gun debate. I feel the current laws are overly restrictive, but I’m not sure I’m quite comfortable with the idea of a free for all.

  41. Sukrit, here’s a press release from the SSAA which quotes results from the AIC. Assuming the figures are typical, then registration probably doesn’t help much except in the obvious cases such as murder of a family member.

  42. I was being a bit disengenuous; I know that guns arent really banned, only some of the guns to some of the people.

    There is no (effective) ban on criminals owning guns.

  43. Bryant killed a bunch of people cos he was the only armed person in the area when he started shooting. If other people had been armed he may have killed one or two or perhaps none.

    I really do not like this idea of background checks etc. It seems to me everyone has a legitimate right to self defence, to defend their family, home and property. That includes criminals, including those with convictions for violence. In fact such persons are far more likely than the average Canberra public servant to be confronted with a gun. A simple example, a guy does 5 years for selling dope, comes out of prison on parole, hes wallking down the street with his wife and kid when he is confronted by an armed former associate who believes he ratted to the cops. I believe the parolee in that situation has the right to self defence, which means he has the right to carry a weapon.

    It is because of these sorts of situations are likely to occur to excons etc rather than nice libertarians, that excons carry weapons, which of course is an automatic parole violation as well as being a crime. Cops thus get easy busts on excons that don’t play ball with the coppers. The real issue with gun law as with any sort of law is not what the law proscibes etc. But how, when, why, and against who it is enforced, and whose benefit.

    Once you give discretion over catagories of persons fit or unfit to possess guns to the authorities then that discretion will be exercised corruptly. I’m a mutualist anarchist do you think the cops would issue me with a gun licence ?

  44. Sukrit, accepting purely for the sake of argument that your notion of licensing owners is no an excessive infrongement of freedom, can you answer this:

    Will criminals register?

    Of course not.

  45. Chris, I agree criminals won’t register.

    What I am interested to know is if freer gun laws will need to be coupled with stiffer penalties. That is, will freely available powerful weapons prove too tempting to use in certain situations for otherwise law-abiding people? Will we need to compensate for this (human nature?) by instating longer prison terms to maintain a strong deterrence effect?

  46. I study criminal law and justice in New Jersey USA, and am an avid gun collector. Every gun produced by a company has several of its parts stamped with a serial number, just like the VIN number on a car, most criminals (at least in cases i have studied) are aware of this and go to great lengths attempting to destroy this marking. As the original purchaser you must have a Firearm Purchasers Permit, which must be obtained from you local police station, endorsed by the chief of police requires three forms of identification as well as fingerprinting and your picture on file. When you purchase a firearm, the store you buy it from must submit the serial number on the gun and who it was sold to, to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. As far as the serial number being used to help solve a crime, as stated before, if the number is readable it will be traced back to the original purchaser of the weapon, which may have been a number of years ago, the gun could potentially travel through dozens of hands in this time period. Also taken into account is that fact that gun are not neccesarily very cheap, facilitating most criminals to seek alternative routes of acquiring them possibly by force. there are many cases on record of a stolen gun being used in a crime, then discarded as it will be traced back to someone who (with any forsight) has reported it to the proper authorities.

    Another point ive seen being made is the potential power of weapons that can be owned, ie high caliber fast firing military stylized weapons. The truth is that the average automatic military weapons, are extremely expensive, especially for someone who wants to just carry it around, as a reference U.S made and NATO used M-249 5.56 caliber belt fed machine gun, a man portable weapon, retails in the neigborhood of $6500 dollars in used condition. With the increase of a weapons destructive power, is a proportional increase in the amount of paperwork and licensing required to obtain it. Barrett Rifles, model M82A1, a .50 caliber (12.7 X99mm) sniper rifle is retail priced at $7,725 without a scope. once the neccesary funds have been acquired and the weapon purchased, it must be registered in person at your local police station on a form signed by the owner, by the chief of police, and notarized two police witnesses, the purpose is to establish the local owners of exotic weapon in the event that they are used maliciously.

    The U.S is also not just a gun toting free for all. many gun owners are multiple gun owners. this fact skews many sureys on gun ownership. studies show tens of millions of guns are in America, which is a correct statment but is incorrectly interpreted (or pehaps incorrectly portrayed) as “tens of millions of Americans own a gun”.The truth of the matter is that 95% of gun owners own multiple guns, i personallyhave ten, which is actually a rather small number. If this number is used as an average, 40 million guns may very well be owned by four million people. this may or may not but the situation into perspective.

    punishment of manyis determined not by the tool itself but the manner it is used. there are less legal reprocussions carrying a gun (such as in the backwoods while wearing camoflauge and an orange hat) then carrying bolt cutters (outside of a prision). It is against the law to carry a screwdriver without a purpose, such as late at night when clearly no woprk is to be done, and one may becharge with “possesion of tools to commit a crime” or “conspiracy to commit a felony” but that would be a stretch

  47. what does any of this yakkety,yack have to do with restoring a ex-cons rights? Isnt that what your title was about?

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