Skepticism on Global Warming

There are four distinct reasons for skepticism about political action on global warming.

The first ground is the positive question of fact whether the global atmosphere is heating up. Any given person cannot know this through his own senses. Everyone, including all the scientists, must rely on other tools of knowledge. Skepticism here notes the uncertainty in the astronomically complex data sets, the uncertainty in the many, various and complex models used, and the statistical uncertainty involved at every stage.

It also seems relevant to observe that scientific expertise is incapable of predicting the weather one week in advance: what makes us so sure they can predict it with such certainty in fifty or a hundred years? Also science is itself an anthropological phenomenon. It is affected by human culture, fashion, orthodoxy, and interests. Most of the history of science, scientists have believed what is now known to be untrue or inaccurate. Skepticism is indeed the scientific attitude. So it is perfectly appropriate to approach scientists and their interested prognostications with skepticism.

The second ground for skepticism is whether global warming is being caused
by man.

‘All seemed confident in a sort of reverse astrology. Instead of believing that every aspect of their lives was affected by heavenly bodies, they believed that heavenly bodies were affected by every aspect of their lives.’
 — P.J. O’Rourke, on delegates to the Rio Earth Summit.

If global warming is bad, what does it matter whether or not it is being caused by human or by solar, or tectonic, or volcanic, or other activity? The eruption of Mt St Helens spewed more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than any one person, industry, or country in history: yet we don’t hear people calling on governments to stop volcanic eruptions. Why not? Because the environmental movement don’t just want anthropogenic global warming to be a fact: they want it to be morally bad. They want it to be a modern sin. Every other individual of every other species uses natural resources, and affects the distribution and abundance of life and death. But human economic activity is morally wrong apparently. Human beings have no right to be disturbing the beauty of nature, the environmental movement seems to be saying.

This in turn seems to show a value system that believes in values over and above human interests. But of course who could say what these super-human values are, without placing themselves in a position of superiority vis-à-vis their fellow human beings? Who could possibly have the authority to pronounce on such values, without being involved in a fatal conflict of interests? This is precisely what is involved in the whole idea that climate change warrants governmental intervention. The idea that we should stop global warming because it’s caused by man is certainly ground for skepticism, because it shows that the problem is not global warming as such, it’s the environmental movement’s conception that so much human life, activity, satisfaction and happiness are fundamentally morally wrong.

Yet even if the globe’s climate is warming, and even if it’s caused by man, the third ground of skepticism is:- so what? Nothing whatsoever follows from those premises. The atmosphere itself, the air we breathe, is the waste – the pollution – produced by earlier organisms. Should they have fretted about filling the atmosphere with oxygen? The earth has not stopped changing since it began. Earth’s climate is constantly changing – always has done, always will do. During eighty percent of the earth’s history there have been no polar ice caps. And there have been at least two ice ages when global temperatures were warmer than they are today. The whole fret-fest is foolery on a grand scale. What sort of extreme and pathological conservatism demands a world in which there is no change; or which demands to dictate at the cost of other people’s lives, health or fortunes, what change in the air is permissible? Why should you or I or anybody else do anything about global warming, let alone be forced to?

It may be said that global warming warrants action because of all the detriments, or disasters, that it will cause mankind. There will be floods, droughts, hurricanes, and so on. However those who cite all the disadvantages never seem to cite the corresponding advantages: areas which will be more fertile, places that will be more inhabitable or beautiful, new rivers and lakes and forests and plains, new abundance of life and happiness that will be made possible by the change. ‘Ain’t it awful?’ they seem to chorus, or whine. This view is fundamentally unbalanced.

And of course how could anyone possibly know *what* the balance of advantages and disadvantages would be across the globe, what continents or oceans will experience what changes in the distribution and abundance of individuals of different species? The answer is, of course, they don’t know! They are in the realm of vaulting presumption, as they must be on a topic of such global complexity and uncertainty. We should be far more concerned about the dangers of their vanity, their negative view of human life, their bloody superiority, and their readiness to use organised violence against their fellow human beings, than we are about global warming.

The great rise in the human population since the advent of industrial capitalism is because people more and more use machines powered by coal and petrol to produce food, clean water, housing, light, warmth, medicines, clothing, transport, communications and entertainment: in other words to support life, health and happiness in greater abundance and quality. But all these are unworthy to those who look down on their fellow human beings as some kind of noxious pest, as the environmental movement seems to do. (One animal liberationist recently declared that she thought the world would be far better off if there were no human beings on it: and she is by no means alone in this misanthropic opinion.) Curtailing the use of industrial activity must mean that there will be fewer of the benefits that such activity provides.

However it may be said that cutting down on current industrial activity will make life better for people in the future. But of course on the other hand, cutting down on such activity has the obvious disadvantage that it reduces the benefits to human beings now. Do people seriously imagine that you can cut Australia’s by fifty percent of current levels, and no have a major effect on life, health, and happiness of real human beings? The recent $100 per year rise in electricity bills is the merest taste of what the environmental fascists have in mind. Who is to decide who should have to go without what, and for whom, when, why and how? How could anyone possibly know the technical facts or ethical values necessary to answer these questions? The truth is that no scientist, economist, politician or bureaucrat can provide the answers to these questions. They are a matter of arbitrary power; nothing else.

Appeal to science to answer these questions is mere voodoo. Every human being matters. Therefore what is needed is to know in individual terms who must be deprived of food, or medicine, or light, or heating, or other benefits of which industrial activity, when, and why, for whom, when and why.

Mere statistical analyses of great piles of data, mere aggregations of measures of central tendency, mere generalisations over ages and continents and millions and billions of human population, are so very incapable of even coming near what would be necessary to answer the practical and ethical questions inovlved, that the very attempt to put them forward, shows the utter intellectual and moral bankruptcy behind the move for political action on global warming. The fraud consists precisely in valuing human beings not as individuals with their own life and family, but as troublesome quantities to be manipulated forcibly and ‘scientifically’ in vast lumps of groups – in this case, ‘countries’. The confiscation of private property to fund this offensive anti-social scheming has already begun. It displays the familiar statist tactic of insisting that the freedoms and even lives of individuals must be sacrificed in the name of an ethereal greater good based on large groups and understood only by politicians. The fourth ground of skepticism about climate change is that, even if we were capable of knowing that governmental action on climate change is desirable, that still would provide no ground for believing that government is capable of achieving the result it wants.

Government has just spent the last hundred years forcing everyone to pay for coal-fuelled electricity, and now it turns out that was all wrong! Since in its own terms this must be acknowledged a monumental cock-up, do we see government renouncing the misuse of its taxing and regulating powers for purposes of manipulating people into particular energy outcomes? Not a bit of it! And somehow the answer always seems to be more tax, not less governmental intervention.

How are we to know that government’s choices now are going to be any better than they were then? We aren’t! Why should we presume that governmental policy – ie taxation and bureaucratic regulation – is even capable of dealing with the complexity of the problem in the first place? Presumably government has some kind of magical power to know which energy sources are preferable on balance in every case and all circumstances? Yet if one energy source were clearly preferable, why would not everyone be already using it?

And why should we believe that vested interests close to the machinations of power are not likely to miscarry the public will so as to line their own pockets? Why should we blithely believe that there will be no unintended consequences, or that the advantages of governmental action will necessarily outweigh the disadvantages? Why should we believe that, even with all the political will in the world, government will not end up making the problem worse rather than better? The socialisation of the air should expect no greater success than the socialisation of the Russian economy enjoyed.

There are indeed weighty grounds for skepticism at the current political pretensions to knowledge and power on climate change. The G8 recently resolved not to let the global temperature rise by more than 2 degrees – like they have a thermostat(!). The very idea that government now controls the weather is like a throw-back to the ‘we should sacrifice virgins to make it rain’ thing.

What we are witnessing here, folks, is superstition. Elizabethans had their witchcraft, Haitians have their voodoo; and modern man has a superstitious belief in the magic of governmental intervention. This manifests in the climate change debate in a belief that science and government are capable of dictating the relevant values and actions on climate change.

The current rush to political action to forcibly curtail industrial activity so as to wage war on warm weather should be opposed on principle: the principle of human freedom.

The position of a political party devoted to liberty and small government should be to have no policy on climate change. Libertarians should openly challenge the advocates of governmental action on climate change to show who should have to go without the food, medicine, housing, light, warmth, transport currently produced by industry fuelled by coal and petrol to satisfy who in the future, and why, and how is it known?

The answer, or failure to answer, alike will show the intellectual and ethical incoherence of the whole hysterical load of pious nonsense.

101 thoughts on “Skepticism on Global Warming

  1. Justin — in future, please try to edit your posts before you publish them. For example, please make sure the paragraphs are formatting properly, please add a topic tag (instead of “general”) and please put in a break if you have a long post. Thanks.

  2. I disagree with your post on a number of grounds.

    First, it is a fact that temperatures have increased. Denying this fact discredits the skeptic position.

    Second, the reason the anthropogenic part matters is that if we are creating the change then we have the power to stop it. The government doesn’t have a policy to stop volcanos because we don’t know how to stop volcanos.

    Third, there is absolutely no need to believe in “a value system that believes in values over and above human interests” to be worried about AGW — so your response to that issue, while long, is not relevant.

    Forth, it is very easy to believe that climate change — if large enough — will lead to negative impacts. Just because climates have changed in the past doesn’t make it good. And I note that the climate hasn’t changed significantly over the last 10,000 years and that is the same time that humans have done well.

    Fifth, while I agree that there are potential benefits from climate change and that the alarmists often stress the costs and hide the benefits… there has been some study of these issues already. One study, often cited by skeptics, suggests that warming of 2-3 degrees is unlikely to have a net cost to the world (though the benefits & costs will be unequally distributed). Even that study agreed that large climate change will undoubtably lead to a net cost. I think this conclusion is fairly obvious.

    Sixth, I agree that we can never be totally sure about the future. But it is necessary to make predictions about the future and base policy on those predictions. We do this all the time with every area of our lives, businesses and public policy. We don’t know exactly what food we want to eat next week but we still buy groceries. Qantas doesn’t know exactly the demand for Melbourne-Perth flights next year, but they still need to buy planes & hire staff. The government doen’t know exactly how much they will spend next year, but they still need to raise tax. We can’t just abandon all decisions because the future is uncertain.

    Seventh, I agree that there are nutty greenies out there and that energy has been massively beneficial to the human race. But that is not relevant to the question of whether AGW is real, whether it has costs, and whether we can do anything about it.

    Eighth, your question: “Who is to decide who should have to go without what, and for whom, when, why and how?” doesn’t seem relevant to anything.

    Ninth, I agree that government policy is often counter-productive. But it is not satisfactory to therefore declare that all government action is wrong, irrespective of all arguments. We should submit all proposed government policies (on AGW or otherwise) to robust analysis and only introduce them if there is a clear argument for a likely net benefit. So far as I understand, Kyoto has failed most analysis. But we need to at least give it a chance to pass.

    Tenth, you ask: “if one energy source were clearly preferable, why would not everyone be already using it?” The answer to this question is very obvious and I’m surprised you asked it. The reason is that carbon emissions may have a negative externality. I am a big skeptic of externality arguments. I reject them for education, welfare, smoking and even lighthouses and most other things. Indeed, the only good externality argument I can think is carbon emissions (if the science is correct).

    Sorry to say this — but I find this post to be quite poor, unconvincing and potentially an embarassment to the libertarian movement. I object to the fear-mongering of the alarmists, but I also object to the fear-mongering that says people are going to go without housing, light, warmth, transport etc. Nobody serious is suggesting we go without energy and all studies of every scenario expects us to be richer in the future than we are now.

    I’m not convinced for the need of government policy on global warming (for various reasons outlined elsewhere)… but unless our arguments can be more factual and nuanced that this we are unlikely to be taken seriously.

  3. Pingback: O Insurgente » Blog Archive » Skepticism on Global Warming - em quatro pontos

  4. My rejection of externality arguments doesn’t come from a rejection of the existence of externalities. They exist. My general point is that they exist for all human activity in many ways, both positive & negative, and many of those ways are difficult to measure.

    It is very difficult to determine whether any particular activity has a drastically higher/lower externality than other actions. Yet simple-minded analysis allows people to find any possibility of an externality and use it to justify any policy they like.

    The point about lighthouses is that it is often held up as a good example of a good that would not have been produced without government (because it has a significant positive externality)… and yet the lighthouses in Britain were produced and maintained by the private sector and only later nationalised.

  5. Justin, see the debate further below and in paticular see the comments made by Pommy and myself.

    1. Remove Governemnt failure.

    2. Impose a tax based on actual changes and link it to a futures market(see Mc Kitrick), but only if such a tax can be shown to have a net benefit after implementing 1. Kyoto for example failed the CBA.

    In 1. I mean to remove the bias against energy sources, taxes on new technology, tariffs and subsidies supporting inefficient production and excessive pollution.

    If you are right, at worst we impose microeconomic reform by implementing 1.

    Justin is right, why will low income earners want to pay a tax to support the construction of dikes in the Netherlands?

  6. Sorry to say this — but I find this post to be quite poor, unconvincing and potentially an embarassment to the libertarian movement.

    I hope you don’t believe you are speaking on behalf of the “libertarian movement”, John. That would be taking excessive youthful self-confidence to a whole new level.

    My opinion is that Justin addresses the topic pretty well and many people, libertarian and non-libertarian, would identify with him.

    His four grounds for scepticism are rational and reasonably argued, whether or not every point is totally relevant. I also don’t believe anyone here can claim expert knowledge on this topic.

    Justin’s main point, “The current rush to political action to forcibly curtail industrial activity so as to wage war on warm weather should be opposed on principle: the principle of human freedom” is something no libertarian could disagree with.

  7. I am 68 years of age, for me life experiences do count when stacked up against those without experience, and just relying on what ever media they follow. Common sense deserves a place in our analysis paralysis, disney land, business world.
    Global warming has happened in my lifetime, i realise that the seeds were sown before my birth. Industrial productivity has increased in my life time, the number of cars has increased in my lifetime, detrimental farming practices have increased in my life time, greed has increased in my life time, imported products have increased in my life time, the population has increased in my life time, land clearing and deforestation has increased in my life time, coal fired power has increased in my lifetime, wild life has decreased in my life time.
    Rising sea levels have happened in my life time, ancient belief systems and superstitions have increased in my life time, business which pollutes has increased in my life time.
    Self proclaimed experts have increased in my life time, unqualified comments have increased in my life time, propaganda and persuasion by politicians and business types have increased in my life time.
    The four seasons of nature have become less defined, in my life time.
    People’s sense of their relationship with the natural world has declined in my life time, due to less nature to relate with.
    Flat earthers have reappeared in our current time, to deny and denigrate scientists who do not fit in with the “for profit or loss” greedy corporate mentality, which populates the gambling dens known as stock exchanges, also populated by gambling share holders, these people live a
    disney land existence, oblivious to the basic instinct of survival, which has been successfully bred out of the modern human.
    I will not be around to see the end results, but i sincerely hope that the young children of today and future generations, do not have to suffer, due to the uncaring and macho attitudes that prevail in our world today.

  8. Where do I claim (or even imply) that I am talking for the libertarian movement? Strange comment DavidL, and needlessly condecending & rude.

    It is not reasonable to doubt that the earth has warmed. It is not reasonable to doubt that sufficient warming will lead to costs. It is not reasonable to dismiss all policy a priori without carefully studying their benefits & costs.

    I generally agree with Justin’s conclusion (that we should be slow to policy and be skeptical of government action) but if we build our position on bad arguments then we will lose the debate.

  9. I am 55 years old Jaye. Few if any of those things happened in my lifetime, so they must have occurred in the 13 years before I was born.

    In my lifetime life expectancy has increased considerably in most of the world, as has economic well-being. Famines are now a thing of the past thanks to science and global trade. The world’s population is no longer increasing at an exponential rate thanks to improved economic conditions. The environment, ever resilient, is recovering from the ravages of socialism and ignorance. Democracy and basic freedoms are more widespread than they have ever been.

    On second thoughts, perhaps you are a time traveller from the 17th century.

  10. Where do I claim (or even imply) that I am talking for the libertarian movement? Strange comment DavidL, and needlessly condecending & rude.

    Right here John: Sorry to say this — but I find this post to be quite poor, unconvincing and potentially an embarassment to the libertarian movement.

    I consider that comment to be condescending and rude to Justin. And pointing that out to you is neither of those on my part.

  11. So Jaye, every proposal to tax CO2 emissions has failed a cost-benefit test, and the role of Governemnt subsidies to coal etc has not been adressed.

    Why don’t we just end the subsidies and keep sensible and cautious policy?

    Cars have lessened pollution. It is well known that India and China have a pall of smog over them, caused by dirty burning fires and animal transportation. London was at it’s most polluted in the early 17th century.

  12. DavidL — my comment doesn’t say nor imply that I am speaking on behalf of the libertarian movement. Indeed, the sentence in question starts with “I find…” which clearly implies I’m talking about my opinion. Your comment makes no sense.

    Besides this weird and unjustifiable distortion of my comment, I note that you haven’t responded to my actual points.

    This is a forum for political debate. If you think it is rude to find an argument poor & unconvincing then I suggest you avoid political debates.

    In contrast, your comment about me is not discussing my argument, but my personality (whether my self-confidence is too high). The distinction is very important and it is one that we all need to understand clearly. If you want to progress the AGW debate — make a comment about the arguments and keep your opinion of me to yourself.

  13. John – any online citation that you have of lighthouses being built originally by the private sector would be appreciated.

    Lighthouses also offer a benefit that is “non-excludable”. I imagine that in an area where a single private operator has a lot of shipping then the case for a private lighthouse may be high enough to get built by that private shipping company. However in an area where there is a lot of shipping but not by any single shipping company then the benefit to any single private operator may not be high enough to justify the cost of a lighthouse. This may be the case even though the total benefit in terms of lives and capital saved may be well worth it.

    So I suspect that some publicly maintained and funded lighthouses make sence in public policy terms and given the overall considerations it probably makes sense for most lighthouses to be funded by the public sector (with private alternatives still permitted). Personally I am inclined to believe that the practice of having lighthouses as a public fascility generally survives scrutiny.

    Given that avoiding negative climate change is a “non-excludable” good and that the CBA for any single business or private entity is not high enough to warrant action then I agree that it does seem to fit the mould in terms of being an area where public policy intervention may be legitament.

  14. CONSUMER WARNING: LONG AND TEDIOUS POST AHEAD

    As the resident linguistic pedant, in this case I will come to John Humpreys’ (JH) defence against DavidLeyonhjelm’s (DL) charge that JH claimed or implied to be talking for the libertarian movement. The JH sentence that DL claims demonstrates this is as follows:

    Sorry to say this – but I find this post to be quite poor, unconvinving and potentially an embarressment to the libertarian movement.

    The first thing to observe is that the use of “I find” means that the following opinions are explicitly those of JH – and there is no claim that others will hold them. Of course, some might respond that, by saying that the post is “potentially an embarressment to the libertarian movement”, JH is speaking on its behalf. To see why this would be an incorrect interpretation, consider the hypothetical in which JH arged that if someone of the Left used Australia’s foreign debt levels to attack the Howard Government, that would be “potentially embarressing to the Left.” Would we then draw the conclusion that JH was “speaking for the Left”? Clearly not. This leaves the possible argument that, given JH’s former and current position in the Australian Libertarian movement, his words attract added weight and when he mentions how things might affect the Libertarian movement, he is implicitly, if not explicitly, speaking on the movement’s behalf. But, consider a similar situation that arose recently: would we say that Paul Keating was speaking for the ALP in his recent comments on Lateline? No, he was giving his own views and, while they may have the best interests (as he sees it) of the political organisation to which he belongs, we would not say that he was speaking, either explicitly or implicitly, on its behalf.

    Thus, while JH may not understand the meaning of theft :), I conclude that he was correct to reject the notion that he was not speaking for the Libertarian movement in his criticisms of Justin Jefferson’s initial post.

  15. the sentence in question starts with “I find…” which clearly implies I’m talking about my opinion.

    Then why mention the “libertarian movement”? That’s not personal.

    And didn’t you notice my comment was prefaced with “I hope you don’t believe ..” It was you who interpreted it as a positive assertion. Does the shoe fit? Giving me advice about political debate, considering our comparative experience, suggests it might.

    I may respond to your AGW arguments but more likely I will comment further on Justin’s post.

  16. RS – If your going to be a linquisting pedant then you should have taken note of the fact that David did not say that John claimed to speak for the libertarian movement and David did not claim that John was being excessively self confident. He merely said he “hoped” John wasn’t claiming to speak for the movement because that would represent excessive confidence. Obviously David had a barb in there for John but a linquistic pedant would focus on the actual words David used and not the (probably correct) inference that John made.

  17. Terje – DavidL said “hoped” in his first post (no. 7), but that qualification was dropped in his follow up post (no. 11). Rather, in post 11, in response to JH’s question of “Where do I claim (or even imply) that I am talking for the libertarian movement?”, DavidL responded with “Right here John” and then cited the statement by JH that was the focus of my analysis.

    Richard

  18. DL — I mentioned the libertarian movement because things written on this blog reflect on the libertarian movement. In the context, it was Justin’s post that would be seen as a representation of libertarians.

    I did note the “I hope you don’t believe…”, which is why I asked you to clarify. Then, in comment 11 you upgrade your implication to an accusation. (Terje, note well.)

    It made no sense to bring up the furfy of me speaking on behalf of the libertarian movement. And it also adds nothing for DavidL to pretend that he somehow has superiority in political debate.

  19. RS – Comment 11 may reasonably be regarded as a reference to “implication” not “claim”. A true linguistic pedant would have seen that. 😉

    The man in the street would just observe that John was being particularily direct in his assessment of Justins article, David found Johns comment a bit uppity and then suddenly we all started engaging in a rather obtuse meta analysis. 😀

  20. in comment 11 you upgrade your implication to an accusation. (Terje, note well.)

    In comment #11 I said, “I consider that comment to be condescending and rude to Justin.”

    It followed your comment #9: “Strange comment DavidL, and needlessly condecending & rude”.

    Your complaint in #13 regarding self confidence remained conditional.

    And I didn’t pretend to have superiority in political debate. I questioned whether you are qualified to give me advice on political debates ie “If you think it is rude to find an argument poor & unconvincing then I suggest you avoid political debates.”

    This is my final word. If you had done what you have said I should do and limited your comments to the arguments, I would not have found it necessary to defend Justin. So follow your own advice.

  21. DavidL — you now accuse me of making personal comments about Justin. That, once again, is totally false. Specifically, I said “I find this post…” which clearly shows I was talking about the post.

    You, amazingly, interpret this as me saying “the libertarian community finds Justin…”. The two sentences are nothing alike and I don’t appreciate you making up false meanings to my sentences.

    Your quotes from #11 and #9 are irrelevant. I asked where I claimed (or implied) that I was speaking for the libertarian movement. You said “right here” and then quoted me. That means you were accusing me of saying (or implying) that I spoke for the libertarian movement. I did not and there is no honest way that my words can be interpreted as such. Your last word on this issue should be an apology.

    Justin (the person) doesn’t need defending. If you wanted to defend his arguments (which is what I was attacking) then you should have, instead of misrepresenting me & switching to personal discussions.

    Given the drastic misrepresentations and misunderstandings in your comments, I think I am very qualified to give you advise about political debates. On the other hand, I’m not sure you are in a position to give me personal advise on self-confidence.

    Now — if anybody wants to skip the phycological analysis and address the arguments, that would be welcome.

  22. Purging sounds somewhat too religious for my liking. It is a pity that the Wikipedia article does not contain any meaningful extracts of the paper.

    The mere pre-existance of private lighthouses does not in my mind seem sufficient to dismiss the notion that governments should run lighthouses. One would need to make a case that government involvement adds too little to the endeavour (ie no additional worthy lighthouses) or that it adds excessive costs (eg too many additional lighthouses or too much spent on lighthouses).

    I suppose it would be possible for a government agency to access the benefit and cost of various lighthouses at various locations and then only build the ones that some particular private operator is not likely to build independently. However such an agency would be accused of building lighthouses in all the most dubious localities whist ignoring the obvious black spots.

    I’m open to persuassion but I’m not likely to champion the privatisation of lighthouses.

  23. The other day I accidentally printed out something single sided instead of double sided. I got told off by a women at work who happened to be next to the printer.
    So I said something along the lines of, “Don’t worry deforestation isn’t a problem in Australia, we have more forest here now that 200 years ago, by printing more I’m ordering more trees to be planted”.
    Shen then looked at me as if I was the devil incarnate for what I assume was my guiltless approach to printing. Then completely ignoring my comment said, she said, “but it’s bad for the environment”.
    I then said, “no it’s wasteful. You should never waste anything because it costs money and efficiency”.
    I was then treated to another dirty look.

    So I do think that to some people do not have a clear understanding of environmental issues. To some the environment is some kind of holy entity that should be left totally to its own devices and only be tampered with by non-homo sapiens. I worry about people’s susceptibility to irrational guilt feelings. The mandatory government approach will unintentionally capitalise on and exacerbate this irrational approach. And for me, this post at least highlights that point.

    So I think Libertarians can first make the point that environmental impact and management are necessary and are not anything to feel guilty about.
    Then, I think Libertarians need to persuade people that voluntary action and private enterprise and innovation are the best ways to manage our environment. That people will naturally do what they perceive to be best for them and that this process will achieve better results. So this implys that libertarians need to focus on people’s perception that the state can save them from their evil selves. It’s just the same as every other political issue from the libertarian view point.

    Also, in terms of argument artillery, perhaps the LDP can research case studies of voluntary environmental management. For example, “Conservation Through Private Innitiative”. http://www.reason.org/ps328.pdf

  24. John – yes indeed. I was about to clarify on that very point as soon as I read my published comment.

    I am not currently opposing the privatisation of lighthouses, I am just saying I’m not convinced by the hand waiving I have witnessed thus far. It may be that Mark or yourself will convince me that my position is ill considered, which will be all well and good.

    However until then I’ll happily take the conservative position and spend any advocacy time available seeking to fry bigger fish. Government owned lighthouses don’t keep me awake at night. And I am not the last line of defence preventing the privatisation of lighthouses so I don’t feel any particularily grave moral burden.

    Out of interest though do you think that historically there was ever a good case for the government funding of some lighthouses?

  25. The conservative position would have been not to nationalise them in the first place!

    Not that important though.

    Similarly but more importantly, I think liberalisation then a Mc Kitrick style futures and tax system implemented if it passes a CBA should operate.

    Perhaps I am missing something, if it would fail a CBA, the futures market would tank?

  26. Terje: “Government owned lighthouses don’t keep me awake at night.”

    That’s because you don’t live near one… 🙂

    I’m sure there are lots of example of the government doing something that had a net benefit. The problem is in setting up the institutions and processes that result in the best outcome. If there was a constitutional rule against government controlling ownership of any property (other than parliament house) then I think we would get a better outcome. Such a law would remove both the good and bad nationalisations, and I think would give a net benefit.

    Of course, if we ever have the option of God running the government and only ever doing good, then I would find nationalisations (and socialism more generally) more convincing. But until that time comes, I feel confident that skepticism of government is a good starting point.

  27. In public policy terms I don’t think siding with the status quo is necessarily a bad starting point when the status quo is long standing. I agree that the ultimate burden of proof should remain with the interventionist, however given the effort required to marshall arguments and evidence for and against any policy position I’m reasonably comfortable with sticking with the status quo so long as the stakes are low.

    One of the reasons I support sunset clauses for legislation that orginates with marginal support is that the status quo and natural tendancies towards conservatism unfortunately flip the burdon of proof. Perhaps the burdon of proof should not flip but in pragmatic terms this is what actually happens.

    Were individual lighthouses actually physically nationalised or did the state just start building lighthouses and the private sector then stopped?

  28. Prohibiting government ownership is an interesting idea. I presume you don’t mean to prohibit bank accounts in the governments name but merely physical property such as land and buildings.

  29. I mean a controlling interest in physical assets. That is to say, they can still own consumer goods (stapplers, computers) and financial assets (including cash, bonds, shares etc). But this isn’t an idea for the near future. The sunset clause is more workable at the moment.

    I agree that lighthouses aren’t an area to waste our political resources. I just mentioned them in passing to show that I wasn’t generally supportive of externality arguments.

  30. I wondered who would finance private lighthouses, and then I thought- Lloyds, of course! It would be in the interests of Insurance groups to pool their resources and ensure that shipping is safe. Perhaps other ‘public good’ facilities could be so financed?

  31. The costs of maintaining lighthouses must be less than the costs associated with paying out policies! The goods are lost, and the ship is usually a write-off as well. It’s true that they wouldn’t fit the lighthouses with gold fittings, but would try to minimize costs, so these would be cheap.
    As for free riders, maybe the insurers would hope that added safety would encourage more trade, and thus more business for them as people pay for insurance of all types. And ships still get destroyed in storms, despite the extra safety that they have these days, so the need for shipping insurance hasn’t gone down (Can you say ‘Ship-wreck off Newcastle Beach!’?).
    Terje, by your logic, why do Motor Firms make safer and safer cars? Cars that last a long time are not in their best interests, surely? Doesn’t your argument have a flaw, that businesses don’t think long-term?

  32. Terje — insurance companies don’t want more accidents. They want more fear and fewer accidents. So they should subsidise both lighthouses and global warming alarmism. 🙂

  33. Nicholas – Car manufacturers make safer cars because their customers what safer cars as and when it is affordable. There is also a trend towards larger cars which is safe for the occupant but more dangereous for everybody else. I don’t think you’ve really layed a glove on my argument.

    John – If you were selling lighthouses and I was on the board of an insurance company you would not have sold me any lighthouses yet. However how much are you charging for a few litres of that global warming alarmism? And can you provide us with some free samples? 😉

  34. But you haven’t responded to paragraphs 1 and 2 of comment 38, which form the main body of my argument.

  35. Nicholas – if you run an insurance company that builds or has built lighthouses then I can start an alternate insurance company and not bother. Assuming I don’t have the cost of lighthouse construction debt I can offer lower premiums. Hence the free rider problem persists.

  36. I have Spulber’s book which contains a copy of Coase’s paper. Will comment tomorrow.

    Technology however has more or less removed the need for Govenrment or privately provided public navigation aids. Private satellites can provide GPS and radar and INS can do a lot as well.

  37. A good paper on public goods, externalities and NIE for beginners and economists alike:

    Click to access er9603c.pdf

    “Public goods

    In the classic treatment of public goods
    (Samuelson 1955), it is supposed that public
    goods exhibit two characteristics: nonrivalry in
    consumption and the inability of providers to
    exclude users. A lighthouse has been used by
    economists of the stature of John Stuart Mill,
    A. C. Pigou, and Paul Samuelson as an example
    of a pure public good (Coase 1974). Apparently,
    the light from any lighthouse could be used by
    any number of ships and no ship could be
    excluded from using the light. Thus, the problem
    of free riding would make it difficult to
    privately finance a lighthouse. Coase (1974) used
    the lighthouse as a real-world illustration of his
    method of examining the argument for government
    interference into the economy. Coase surveyed
    the history of lighthouses and discovered
    that lighthouses were built by private parties
    even though everyone within sight of the lighthouse
    can use its services without any congestion costs. Coase simply pointed out that ships
    usually arrive one at a time, they can be easily
    identified, and if a captain never pays, the light
    can simply be turned off, as it had throughout
    the early history of the lighthouse. The lighthouse
    operators also charged ships according to
    their tonnage, so that the price paid roughly
    corresponded to the benefits received by the
    owner of the ship. This is a market: a price is
    charged, and if the price is not paid, the next
    time the service will be denied. The institutional
    structure of production is important. If the lighthouse
    is made liable for any accidents caused by
    turning off the light, suddenly a service that
    could be provided privately is turned into one
    that will not be provided at all unless by some
    governmental agency.

    This point and our analysis of externalities
    illustrate how even the greatest economists
    cannot, through deductive reasoning, decide
    whether government action is required to correct
    some perceived market failure. Some type
    of institutional examination of the facts is necessary
    before any policy prescription can be
    reached.”

    If you didn’t pay, they knew who you were and cut you off.

  38. Owners of ports have a self-interest in getting ships to and from their facilities safely. Ergo, they should own and operate lighthouses, or contract out to third party lighthouse providers. Insurance companies could encourage insured ships using ports with adequate protection for shipping lanes by increasing premiums and excesses.

    Free loader effects are not a reason to not increase the efficiency of your own facilities.

  39. RS:
    A very fine piece of pedantry, but I believe I have found one even finer. My Concise Oxford Dictionary does not even allow of the existence of ‘skeptic’; it condescends to list only ‘sceptic’. Therefore you could have argued that the whole rant should be dismissed on a technicality: ‘orthographically non-existent aharrr!’

    John:

    ‘First, it is a fact that temperatures have increased. Denying this fact discredits the skeptic position.’

    It is also true to say that ‘temperatures have decreased’.

    Of course ‘the climate’ is not a single fact, like whether a switch is on or off. It’s a vast complexity of uncountable facts and variables over time, space, and topograhy. To make practical sense, the statement must be qualified, for example, ‘*average* temperatures have increased significantly in recent times’. This then raises questions about the variance, the degrees of freedom, the status of other measures of central tendency, and so on. The assessment of the significance of all these other questions necessarily runs unavoidably into normative questions, which in turn run into questions of human orthodoxy.

    I understand that there is a consensus of sage heads who declare their common opinion that the climate is getting warmer. And in not so distant times, there was a consensus of sage scientific heads on phlogiston, and the ether too. Such is in the nature of the anthropology of science. If a similar consensus had been telling us that the globe is cooling, you can be sure that the ordinary people would be equally positive about that.

    I also remember the scientific consensus in the 1970s about the then agreed problem of global cooling. I have also read a scientific hypothesis to the effect that, while there may be a very short-term warming going on, the bigger trend is for a cooling, which is far worse. I have also read scientific hypotheses to the effect that global warming may have tectonic, volcanic and solar causes.

    In the circumstances, it is by no means a precondition of entering into the debate that one must agree beforehand with the opinion of one party.

    Besides, I haven’t denied that temperatures have increased. I’m merely putting forward the reasons for skepticism. I know that I don’t know whether ‘(global climatic) temperatures have (significantly) increased (in recent times owing to human activity)’, and I believe that other people should be less positive and opinionative considering what must be the state of their own ignorance on so many variables.

    ‘Second, the reason the anthropogenic part matters is that if we are creating the change then we have the power to stop it. The government doesn’t have a policy to stop volcanos because we don’t know how to stop volcanos.’

    Just because processes are the result of human action does not mean they are the result of human design. Such spontaneous developments are not necessarily amenable to central direction – without destroying more valuable values based in human freedom, which is of course the very issue. (An example is the French government’s attempts to police language – to be really successful the enforcement would have to infringe higher values.)

    Absent governmental activity people can voluntarily choose not to do things that emit carbon dioxide, and I have no problem with that: a much neglected option!

    But in issue is the use of government to stop the change. Society and the state are not to be confounded together. Of course the state can stop the relevant change by stopping the relevant human activity. The national socialists of Germany and the Soviet socialists of Russia tried this approach during the twentieth century to the particular human-caused problems that they perceived, and the critical question is how to distinguish the use of power in those cases. Democratic election won’t do it. Self-righteous belief won’t do it either. How do we know that the infringement of liberty will be worth it?

    Let’s suppose that government stopped fifty percent of all industrial activity. The question is a) whether the benefits would be worth the costs, and b) whether government is a process or institution that is capable of making, or should be trusted to make that call.

    ‘Third, there is absolutely no need to believe in “a value system that believes in values over and above human interests” to be worried about AGW — so your response to that issue, while long, is not relevant.’

    It is true that there is no *need* to believe in a super-human value system to be worried about AGW, since climate change activism can be based in utilitarianism. But the fact is, much environmentalist concern is based on an idea of nature’s intrinsic value, as against human use of it.

    ‘Forth, it is very easy to believe that climate change — if large enough — will lead to negative impacts…’

    I’m sure that’s right; but it contains within it all the issues: ‘if large enough’, ‘will lead to negative impacts’ (what doesn’t?), and of course the unstated: ‘so what’? Nothing follows from that unless we can know that our actions are going to make the case better than worse, and to know that, we have to know for whom, in what, why, and at whose expense, in what, and why? *That’s * what we don’t have the answer to.

    ‘Fifth, while I agree that there are potential benefits from climate change and that the alarmists often stress the costs and hide the benefits… there has been some study of these issues already. One study, often cited by skeptics, suggests that warming of 2-3 degrees is unlikely to have a net cost to the world (though the benefits & costs will be unequally distributed). Even that study agreed that large climate change will undoubtably lead to a net cost. I think this conclusion is fairly obvious.’

    John, just think for a minute: how would they know? How would they know what the effect would be, on all relevant locations, ecosystems, organisms, of a 2-3 degree warming? Ecologists can’t even put down a one-metre-squared grid and say what will grow where, when or why. How would they know, for the whole world, a) how the total climate, ecosystem and organism results would pan out, b) relative to human happiness, and c) how they pronounce on the equality of distribution. I can’t see how you can conclude that a negative scenario is ‘fairly obvious’. It seems to me to be nothing of the sort.

    For example, some people argue that global warming would make vast tracts of territory, including Canada and Greenland more fertile, and cite the benefits to growing plants of ‘greenhouse’ gases. Who could possibly weigh up all the bio-geographical and ecological configurations of possibilities?

    Also, a net cost to ‘the world’ also seems a somewhat dubious measure. How is the value of private property distinguished from that of common property? Is there a discount for futurity? Are those in the future valued less on the ground that they may not be here, or because their standard of living may be presumed to be higher? Or is there a premium: since future life may be ‘shitty in the city’? Should not a person’s voluntary interest in providing for their own child rank higher than their compelled ‘interest’ in providing for a stranger at many generations remove? Should I be compelled to sacrifice certain satisfaction now in order to provide for the possibility of somebody I neither know nor care about a million generations into the future? These complexities run inevitably into ethical and philosophical conundrums which are beyond the technical expertise of economists and ecologists; and which argue against compulsory action, and in favour of ‘the blessings of liberty’.

    ‘Sixth, I agree that we can never be totally sure about the future. But it is necessary to make predictions about the future and base policy on those predictions.’

    This presupposes what is in issue, namely, whether it is necessary to have policy on alleged AGW in the first place. People are already capable of, and are, making predictions about the future, and basing their decisions on those predictions. None of what you have said establishes the necessity or desirability of governmental action on alleged AGW, the whole point of which in any event would be to restrict the ability of people to make such decisions.

    ‘Seventh, I agree that there are nutty greenies out there and that energy has been massively beneficial to the human race. But that is not relevant to the question of whether AGW is real, whether it has costs, and whether we can do anything about it.’

    True. But the fact that energy has been massively beneficial to the human race is relevant to the question whether we should do anything about AGW.

    ‘Eighth, your question: “Who is to decide who should have to go without what, and for whom, when, why and how?” doesn’t seem relevant to anything.’

    John, this is the essence of the whole matter. Let us suppose that the climate is warming and that it’s caused by industrial activity, that all mankind apprehend net costs and agree on state action to address the problem, and that the remedy indicated is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. For example, the Australian Labor Party wants a 50 percent reduction by 2050. (Taking into account projected population increase, and parity with other nations on ‘equity’ grounds, would see this figure greatly increased.) Okay, so that’s a *much more than 50 percent reduction of current energy usage levels. *

    Of course, that energy is now going to produce food, clothing, housing, heating, cooling, light, medicines and so on for millions and millions of people. Before capitalism came along, these people just died – usually in infancy. So what’s going to happen to them when we destroy the energy base of industrial civilization in accordance with the policies of the ALP, the Greens, and the UN? How can you cut out *more than * fifty percent of our current industrial activity and not have a major negative impact on the lives of all those human beings who rely for their life, health and happiness on such economic activity?

    Let us suppose that reduction of industrial activity will require a reduction in the human economic activity which it supports, and that, as seems logical, this requires a reduction in human life, health and happiness. For a simple example: suppose a Chinese woman has a baby which would have died before capitalism came along, which would definitely live and enjoy a healthy happy life given the benefits of food grown with tractors, etc. etc. etc. , and which would die in the absence of these benefits. Let us suppose that someone must decide ‘on her behalf’, or on behalf of ‘the world’ that the industrial activity which would support that baby’s life must cease. This must follow from the reduction of industrial activity or we are living in a land of Cockaigne, a land of magic pudding economics. Now who, what social engineer, what dictator, has the authority to decide that, and who in future will benefit, and why should they?

    How could the calculus possibly be done otherwise than on the basis of arbitrary power ‘pur et dur’? And how can this calculus be done not just for one life, but for millions? That is the voodoo that underlies all the pontifications of the sacerdotal classes.

    ‘Ninth, I agree that government policy is often counter-productive. But it is not satisfactory to therefore declare that all government action is wrong, irrespective of all arguments.’

    I’m not declaring against all government action, and I’m not declaring governmental action on climate change wrong ‘irrespective of all arguments’. I have taken account of the arguments and found them wanting. And you have not rescued them

    ‘Tenth, you ask: “if one energy source were clearly preferable, why would not everyone be already using it?” The answer to this question is very obvious and I’m surprised you asked it. The reason is that carbon emissions may have a negative externality. I am a big skeptic of externality arguments. I reject them for education, welfare, smoking and even lighthouses and most other things. Indeed, the only good externality argument I can think is carbon emissions (if the science is correct).’

    Interesting. Why do you think that the arguments against externality arguments do not apply to AGW, but do apply to education etc.?

    Also, carbon emissions may have a positive externality too. My growing of flowers with fertilisers produced using fossils fuels may confer happiness on passersby that outweights their unhappiness with the negativ externalitites. Who is to say that the positive may not outweigh the negative? And why should anyone have an interest in either a positive or a negative generated by someone else in which they have no property right? How would it be known, and how could we know that the remedy were not more abusive than the original problem? More imponderables.

    Nothing so far has discharged an onus of proof on those who are forward to violate liberty; and there is plenty to give us pause about their credentials.

    ‘Sorry to say this — but I find this post to be quite poor, unconvincing and potentially an embarassment to the libertarian movement.’

    Perhaps so, but nothing you have said has shown any reason against my argument that can withstand critical scrutiny. To paraphrase Lewis Carroll ‘Dubiouser and dubiouser’.

    ‘I object to the fear-mongering of the alarmists, but I also object to the fear-mongering that says people are going to go without housing, light, warmth, transport etc.’

    Okay. So what is going to provide the housing, light, warmth, transport etc. that now relies on fossil fuels when we reduce our consumption to less than fify percent of today’s levels?

    ‘Nobody serious is suggesting we go without energy and all studies of every scenario expects us to be richer in the future than we are now.’
    I reiterate my question: what is going to provide the housing, light, warmth, transport etc. that now relies on fossil fuels when we reduce our consumption to less than fifty percent of today’s levels?

    By the way, in the news yesterday was an item that electricity bills in NSW will go up $100 per year because of ‘global warming’. So far from it being the case that ‘nobody serious is suggesting we go without energy’, it is already happening – and that is only the smallest taste of what climate change activists have in mind.

  40. Justin

    You make some good points (especially about scientists needing to be sceptical as the default position) but i take issue with the following;

    i) The first ground is the positive question of fact whether the global atmosphere is heating up.

    It has warmed by 0.6C since 1970. That is a fact. Yes – it might be a short term uptrend in a longer term cooling, but this is the first serious move in the Earth’s temperature in many years. Even Bjorn Lomberg concedes this.

    ii) If global warming is bad, what does it matter whether or not it is being caused by human or by solar, or tectonic, or volcanic, or other activity?

    If GW is bad, and it is being caused by humans, then we must take action.

    iii) Yet even if the globe’s climate is warming, and even if it’s caused by man, the third ground of skepticism is:- so what?

    Huh? So the Earth is warming, and we’re causing it, and you merely shrug your shoulders? Yes, the Earth’s climate has always been changing. But right now, it seems pretty optimal to human life. Why on Earth deliberately stir things up? Who the hell knows what might happen.

    iv) And of course how could anyone possibly know *what* the balance of advantages and disadvantages would be across the globe

    Indeed. But things work pretty well right now. So why risk tinkering with Nature.

    v) Why should we presume that governmental policy – ie taxation and bureaucratic regulation – is even capable of dealing with the complexity of the problem in the first place

    This is a line i find often in libertarian writings. I frankly don’t understand it. Are we saying that elected officials are incapable of getting even the basics right, so frankly, why bother? This line of reasoning does not seem compatible with democracy to me.

    Yes – govt doesn’t have an impressive track record (which is why it should largely keep its nose out of other folk’s business) but it does have a job to do. One of these jobs is to plan for the future.

    vi) The position of a political party devoted to liberty and small government should be to have no policy on climate change.

    Yes, whilst the data is inconclusive. However, should new studies tip the balance one way or the other, then the govt will need to formulate policy.

  41. Justin — you say that I haven’t successfully argued for government action. Of course I haven’t. I didn’t try to.

    You ask what we will use to power housing, light, warmth, transport. The answer is energy. Nobody is arguing that the solution to global warming is less energy. They are arguing that the solution is less carbon-intensive energy. I believe the world will naturally switch to cleaner energies anyway, and the debate is simply about whether we add extra incentives to spead up that transition.

    During the transition it is likely that total energy use will continue to climb as the world gets richer and more populous. That is what nearly every serious person in the debate expects. Comments about not using energy & plunging into dark ages are very far from the actual debate.

    You say “lets suppose the government stopped 50% of industrial activity” but that is not relevant to anything. You are creating irrelevant extreme strawmen for the sake of fear-mongering. The reality is that even if we followed Stern’s suggestions, industrial activity would increase.

    It is simply a fact that average global temperatures have increased. You remember people talking about average global temperatures decreasing in the 1970s because they were decreasing in the 1970s. I don’t believe there are any skeptics (perhaps besides yourself) who question the satellite temperature records (& surface records & balloon records) show an increase in the troposophere temps over since the 1980s.

    You keep changing your arguments for each point. You asked why it mattered whether global warming was man-made. I answered your question. Done.

    Another change of argument is with regards to the “but will it be costly?” question. The very relevant answer is that it will be costly if the change is big enough. I agree that we don’t know what will happen… but that doesn’t change the answer to the question.

    You correctly point out that some people are anti-development. But we gain nothing by only rebutting the worst arguments of our opponents. If we are honestly searching for the truth then it is our responsibility to look for the best arguments.

    You repeat the “how do they know” argument and I agree that we don’t know perfectly. We never know the future perfectly. But we still need to make decisions based on predictions about the future. The uncertainty you cite is irrelevant.

    Contra what you say, making predictions certainly does not pre-suppose that we have to make a government policy. But it is impossible to assess the likely consequences without make predictions about the future. We do this all the time with everything — discount rates, economic growth predictions, population movements, life expenctancy. It is absurd to reject decisions based on uncertain future projections.

    You say that you don’t reject action on global warming a-priori… but that is certainly how your post reads. You say it is a matter of principle that a freedom-loving person should support the government doing nothing. Skepticism of government action on global warming is no more a matter of principle than general skepticism of all government policy. I agree with that skepticism… but it does not translate to a blanket rule against government action.

    Let the proponents of action promote their policies and then let us analyse their likely impacts. We start with a presumption against government action and unless they can show a strong argument for their policy, we still with our null hypothesis.

  42. Here is an argument for government action on global warming. I suggest a $15/tonne co2-e tax for Australia, fully offset against an increase in the tax-free threshold to $10,000 and combined with removing all other energy-related subsidies.

    This will increase dispossable income but slightly increase the price of electricity. These issues will largley offset each other. The net impact on welfare is ambiguous, but should be close to zero. The net impact on equality is ambiguous, but should be close to zero. The net impact on economic growth is ambiguous, but should be close to zero.

    The reduction in energy subsidies will save the government millions of dollars per year. The marginal increase in carbon-intensive energy should increase the incentive to invest in and use alternative energy — including renewables, clean coal and nuclear.

    The co2-e tax should be introduced slowly (in $5/tonne increments) and linked to records of tropical trophosphere temperatures so that a sustained reduction in temps will lead to the removal of the tax.

    If there is no AGW then we will end up with no co2 tax and lower income tax. If there is AGW then we will have marginally decreased our contribution to it in a way that has a negligable (and perhaps zero) impact on the economy. When energy becomes non-carbon we will once again be left with no co2 tax and lower income tax. Win-win.

    And just as a bonus… this is political gold. There is no inherent libertarian principle against considering policies like this.

  43. And now to jump on the other side of the debate…

    Pommy — just because humans may cause global warming doesn’t mean that we must do something to stop it. The government should only act if they can make the situation better. There is no point in acting and making the situation worse just so politicians can say “look, we’re doing something”.

    The questions are:

    * Are global temps increasing (yes)
    * Are humans contributing (probably)
    * Can we do anything about it (probably, but at a cost)
    * Should we do anything about it (only if benefits > costs)

    At the moment there are no major proposals (Kyoto, Stern) that pass a robust benefit-cost analysis. That doesn’t mean we should abandon the idea of government action. We should start with sketpicism and carefully look at each policy alternative.

  44. Humphreys……. stop being such a weakass.

    You have no evidence for CO2-based warming so don’t pretend you have.

    This is a failing commentary on your analytical ability.

  45. Just to modify your questions there, John:

    1. Are global temps increasing? (yes)
    2. Are humans contributing? (probably, though only partially)
    3. Is this a bad thing? (for some yes, others no: net effect uncertain)
    4. Assuming it’s bad, could we do anything? (possibly, at a cost)
    5. Is cost action < cost inaction (Highly debatable – libertarian position should always be for onus of proof to be on interventionists)
    6. Prioritise: Even assuming net benefit at point (5), would this money still be better spent somewhere else? (eg, world hunger, health, education, whatever…)

    There are many stumbles at #5: The present models are hardly scientific; Mosts costs are overhyped (skyscrapers under water, 100 extinctions a day, yadda yadda yadda); Stern uses dodgy methods; even if we can predict effects, we have differences of opinion of “value” (ie, whether nature has intrinsic value outside of human concerns); when calculating costs of action vs inaction, we need to remember to factor in risk associated with action – since we’re acting without complete knowledge.

    If you cut growth by 1%, then in 100 years time (because of compound growth), people will have just over one third of the wealth they would have otherwise had – though they’ll still be much richer than they are now. If this cost was simply to delay effects of warmiong 15 – 20 years, then I would say it was a bad investment.

  46. Fleeced asks the right questions. Bearing in mind Justin’s comments, my answers would be:
    1. Are global temps increasing? (probably, for now)
    2. Are humans contributing? (perhaps fractionally, but I doubt it)
    3. Is this a bad thing? (for some yes, others no: net effect uncertain)
    4. Assuming it’s bad, could we do anything? (possibly but only at high and uncertain cost)
    5. Is cost action

  47. And yet again:
    5. Is cost action > cost inaction (Probably. The true cost of most non-carbon energy is still unclear. Also, the libertarian position should always be for onus of proof to be on interventionists)
    6. Even assuming net benefit at point (5), would this money still be better spent somewhere else? (Yes. Warming would be slow enough to allow ample time for adaptation. Adjustment costs would be far lower than costs of halting anthropogenic component)

  48. The government will be very clever at hiding the real costs of CO2 mandates to the public because the public won’t bother to think it through.
    Your CO2 tax solution sounds OK John but how likely do you think it would be that this type of system is implemented in Australia? (That’s not retorical, I’m actually interested to know).

    Your average lay person won’t correct for expected economic growth, inflation and population growth etc to fully understand what CO2 caps will ultimately mean.
    Lately in the news I’ve heard a great deal about setting CO2 targets and levels as opposed to taxes. That’s what all the lefties and their celebrity friends want, CO2 caps.
    We know how left most hollywood celebrities are. I even heard Leonardo De Caprio is making a global warming movie now.

    David is it the agreed LDP position to oppose proposed caps on CO2 emissions?

    Also, I’ve read some criticisms of Nicholas Stern’s reports. I understand his predictions are at the more alarmist end of the scale.

  49. This is all too weak fellas.

    I haven’t seen one of you talking as if you understand that we are in an ice age and that the 20th centuries extraordinary period of extra-strong solar activity is probably passed us by.

    The oceanic heat budget peaked in late 2003. This period of solar activity was the strongest in at least 1150 years and may have been the strongest in 8000 years.

    Now when you are on a top like that the only way to go is down.

    Interglacials don’t last long and this one has lasted longer then its fair share.

    The warmest part of this interglacial was from 8000-5000 years ago. Now this is in no way surprising since as already mentioned…. the solar activity of 8000 years ago was very strong and when you couple this with the Malinkovitch cycles hitting their most favourable point 6000 years ago we get this 8000-5000 years ago holocene-optimum.

    Since that time the trend has been to get steadily colder. The medieval warm period bucked that trend a bit. But mostly its been an oscillation down and up and down and up with the trendline clearly down.

    Glaciations end all at once after 60 000 to 100 000 years whereas they come on slowly in just this fashion.

    With this as your background context we can see that any CO2-warming is GOOD CO2-warming. Every last joule ought to be considered a good thing. And at the same time CO2 has other massive benefits for the natural world and man.

  50. Tim R — I think my suggestion is quite unlikely at this stage. All the political momentum seems to be heading towards a carbon trading system, which I think is poor policy. But the debate isn’t over yet, so I still think it’s worthwhile suggesting viable alternatives to the trading system.

  51. John,

    I think I know the answer but you were not explicit. Would your carbon tax apply to agricultural activity? Would it apply to every detail of manufacturing? Or would it be limited to the burning of fossil fuels for energy (ie electricity and transport)?

    I think a limited carbon tax has merit. A limited carbon tax is mostly harmless, or at least no more harmful than the current mish mash of policy. However I’d currently only really support such an initiative because pragmatically the likely alternative in the current political climate is carbon trading. My first choice is still wait and see.

  52. Justin,

    You made many good points but I think you seriously misrepresent ALP policy. They aim for a 50% reduction in emissions not a reduction in energy use. We could gain substantial reductions in emissions merely by ceasing to use Coal and by switching to Oil and Gas alternatives. We could make substantial savings by better efficiency in many areas of energy use. And whilst they cost more there are non fossil fuel alternatives such as nuclear, geothermal, hydro, tidal, wind and solar which in some instances are only marginally more expensive.

    I largely agree with your position, but not your analysis of what is being proposed.

  53. John

    just because humans may cause global warming doesn’t mean that we must do something to stop it. There is no point in acting and making the situation worse just so politicians can say “look, we’re doing something”.

    In a libertarian textbook, fine. But not in the real world.

    The statement

    “The LDP has found conclusive evidence that GW is being caused by man and that it will be destructive for Australia’s environment. We have decided to do nothing about this”.

    isn’t going to cut it.

  54. Pommy — this isn’t the LDP and it’s not necessary to bring back every ALS conversation to LDP policy. If you want to discuss LDP policy, I suggest using the LDP blog.

    The ALS blog was made so that libertarians could discuss & debate libertarian ideas. If we could only discuss politically viable libertarian ideas then we wouldn’t have much to discuss.

  55. John

    Yes, I shouldnt have used the LDP as example.

    But substitute any party for the LDP. If new scientific data were to show that the AGW-crowd are right, it is inconcievable that any govt will or should propose a ‘do nothing’ policy.

  56. John

    There is no policy out there at the moment that even comes close to giving it a decent look. Kyoto is a mess. Stern is asking us to essentially make a down payment (a large one) for people who are three generations away from being born. This is pretty novel idea that we should have a moral obligation to people whose grandparents are yet to be born.

    ————–

    Pom

    Preparing for the future can also mean making attempts to speed up technological change through fiscal policy such as changing the tax composition.

    Why not cut middle class welfare and make corporate tax zero. It would certainly speed up the process towards technological change.

    —————

    I am very reluctant to buy into this at present because both sides of government are looking at this as a once in a lifetime opportunity for the decent tax grab. You’ve all noticed how no government is talking about mitigating the tax on energy? What a surprise that’s turned out to be hey?

  57. JC,

    None of them are talking about mitigating the tax on energy because none of them are talking about imposing a tax on energy. Mostly they seem to be talking about carbon trading schemes. A carbon trading scheme will cause an increase in the cost of energy but the cost does not correspond to revenue collected by the government. It corresponds to the real cost of using more expensive technology.

    Likewise banning incandesent light bulbs will increase the average cost of light bulbs but it will not raise any extra revenue for the government.

    As much as I dislike the idea of imposing a carbon trading scheme it is not correct to refer to such a scheme as a tax grab.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  58. “…it is inconcievable that any govt will or should propose a ‘do nothing’ policy.”

    Pommy, if it is determined that the net cost of inaction is less than the net cost of action, then that’s precisely what a responsible government should push for.

  59. Pingback: Points of skepticism « The Blog of Fleeced

  60. JC,

    If they sell emission permits just as they sell spectrum permits then I’d agree with you. And you may in fact be correct.

    I suppose my assumption in regards to carbon trading in the context of the electricity market has been along the lines of mandating that each KWhr must produce no more than X emissions but that if you emit less than X you can sell the difference to somebody else that would permit them to exceed X. This is not that different to how MRET works although it would broaden the incentives to include gas fired power stations and clean coal options (ie low emission non-renewables). However my assumption in this matter is perhaps naive.

    Regards,
    Terje.

  61. Terje

    when it comes to low wages you happily argue for the non-interventionist position. Why is this issue different?

    I do. But tinkering around with the marginal rate of tax and saving the planet from its imminent destruction are two distinct things.

    Fleeced

    Pommy, if it is determined that the net cost of inaction is less than the net cost of action, then that’s precisely what a responsible government should push for.

    It is. But you can never determine this. It will always be a best guess.

    Just for a moment, imagine a new paper has definitively established a link between human activity and global warming. It is inconceivable that any administration could advocate a ‘do nothing’ policy. The demand for ‘somthing to be done’ would be impossible for any party to resist.

    It is perfectly reasonable to advocate a sceptical position right now, as Justin suggests, and demand more proof before advocating any potentially economy-damaging policies.

    But were new evidence to come to light that suggests the watermelons are right, action would have to be taken.

  62. It is inconceivable that any administration could advocate a ‘do nothing’ policy. The demand for ’somthing to be done’ would be impossible for any party to resist.

    I disagree – in fact, I think that’s exactly where the debate is at right now. Regardless of the skeptical position, most people believe in AGW, but the cost/benefit analysis doesn’t pan out.

    In fact, this is essentially the whole point of Bjorn Lomborg’s Skeptical Environmentalist. That is, he’s not skeptical of AGW at all – he’s skeptical of the proposed solutions.

    I know it “feels wrong” to say that doing something will cost more than doing nothing, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I think it’s too early to give up on this.

    Sure, you could implement carbon tax to replace existing “less efficient” taxes, but you’d be giving these big spenders a new method of tax collection which will come back to bite us.

    I understand what you’re saying… but if LDP starts compromising on stuff like this now, it’ll be just another poll-driven party in no time.

    Even if it means we don’t get elected as a result of our position, it gives other parties the sanction to be a little closer to our position, whilst looking moderate.

  63. Pommy – the planet is not facing imminent destruction. Suggesting such an extreme example, even if merely for the sake of argument, is about as useful as someone suggesting that without minimum wage laws we might all starve to death due wages plumeting too low.

    As for tax cuts I can anticipate with reasonable precision the immediate benefit of a tax cut, whilst the benefit of emission controls are highly speculative.

  64. Pommygranate, your question about what it is pragmatic for a party of
    liberty to do is valid. However it is obviously invalid to suggest that we
    should help liberty by punishing it. There needs to be a valid reason for
    restricting individual liberty: that’s the whole point. If drowning witches
    came into fashion because of a mass hysteria say, that would not provide any justification whatsoever for a party of liberty to join in, no matter how many votes were in it. On the contrary, finding no justifiable reason in favour of a particular restriction, we should proceed even more strongly against it.

    All
    It seems that the common ground here is a general skepticism towards government’s claims to be able to take action the advantages of which may be presumed to be greater than the disadvantages. The question is, where is the point, if any, at which government should cut in?

    One of the problems is that, once enough people believe in something, you get a crowd effect, and then even intelligent and educated people will conform because that’s how orthodoxy works. I think it is important that we who advocate the principle of liberty not fall into the trap of advocating any restriction on liberty unless clear reason has been established.

    On critical examination, every single one of the arguments for governmental intervention, in all of their technical guises, relies on a bland assumption that benefits will tend to come in from the mere fact of governmental intervention.

    For example, there can be no question that the ALP’s policy of a fifty percent reduction of carbon dioxide emissions would require people to go without food, housing, medicine and so on, if it translated into a fifty percent reduction of industrial activity. That’s not fear-mongering: it’s the logical consequence of such action, other things being equal. ‘But’ say its defenders, ‘other things aren’t equal!’. Okay. Why not? Well, according to its advocates, it will work like this: they will ban, or otherwise compulsorily restrict, the use of coal, and because of this, alternative cleaner sources of energy will be used which are now not being used so much.

    But of course, all the relevant people can already use all those
    alternative energy sources voluntarily, and the reason they’re not doing it, is because they cost more! You can’t just magically make the costs
    disappear by conjuring benefits out of mere governmental intervention! If energy costs more, then it’s going to be less economical to use it to produce food, housing and so on. Since you can’t get something for nothing, it follows that there must be less of this stuff produced than would otherwise have been the case.

    So how are we to know that the greater costs of using those alternative
    energy sources – including all the end products foregone such as food, medicine and housing – are going to be less than the relevant costs of the problem from AGW? We aren’t!

    Not only that, but those who advocate the policy, aren’t going to know who’s suffering what loss as a consequence of their policy, so if people did end up short of food or medicine or whatever as a result, they could and would just blame it on something else – like not enough governmental action on some other front!

    The ALP policy just takes the uncertainty to another remove, and adds another layer of mystery, or humbug, to the whole oracular exercise. And the same with the similar policies of the Greens, the Democrats, the Stern Review, the UN panel, and so on.

    When people resort to absent authority in science or economics like this, each person’s ignorance can be hidden in the tremendous technical complexity of all those different interrelations and references. Everyone just seems to assume that the technicians must know the answer! The economists assume the ecologists know, the ecologists assume the economists know, and both assume the engineers and climatologists know. The piece of string turns into a rope of smoke. Underlying all is the mere assumption that government must be able to make something out of thin air.

    The problem is also the age-old one that the benefits of governmental
    intervention tend to be concentrated or visible or assumed, while the costs tend to be dispersed, invisible, ignored, or unknowable.

    I just think the whole thing smacks of moral panic, stampede mentality, and scientistic voodoo.

    But of course if magical variables are available, why can’t human freedom ever seem to have the benefit of them? Why can’t we say there’s a problem, but the operations of human freedom will tend to find the knowledge and the ability to solve them? Why is it always government that’s magically all-knowing and all-capable? It’s bullshit, chaps.

    Fleeced’s nutshell approach is good. My take on it is:
    1. Are global temperatures increasing?
    (For all I know they are, yet
    uncertainty still counts against those with the onus of proof. If as John says, it was cooling in the 1970s, but is warming now, that makes a rather unconvincing imperative.)

    2. Is it bad?
    (There’s some reason to think it’s bad, some reason to think it’s
    good, and some reason to think it might be good for some and bad for others. There’s much reason to think that the whole question founders on the enormous uncertainty, complexity, and conundrum involved. Much reason to think that the question is incapable of impartial, sensible answer. Much reason to think that the answer is unknowable in practice. Result: the argument for governmental intervention tends to fail, or probably or definitely fails to discharge the onus of proof at this point.)

    3. Are humans contributing?
    (There is some reasons to think so, some reasons to think not, and some reason to think it’s irrelevant. Much reason to think Australia’s contribution is insignificant in any case. Result: argument for governmental intervention tends to fail, or probably or definitely fails at this point.)

    4. Assuming it’s bad, can and would state action make matters better, or
    would the disadvantages of governmental action outweigh the advantages?
    All the arguments in favour of governmental intervention face the many serious problems of uncertainty, complexity and imponderability by a mere bland assumption that governmental action will, ipso facto, be beneficial. This is invalid and unsound, has no basis in evidence, reason or historical experience; and has mountains of evidence, reason and historical experience against it. The argument for governmental intervention fails totally and definitely at this point.

    John, you said that you put forward an argument for governmental policy on global warming. But you gave a *description* of a policy, not an *argument* for it. To make the argument, you still need to show that the state a) can and would know how to make things better considering all costs and benefits and b) can and would make things better. Nobody has been able to do this without relying on an impermissible mere presumption; and you have not done so either.

    The result is that the argument for governmental intervention fails.

    It should follow that a party of liberty should oppose such intervention.

    In all this talk of proposed policy, nobody seems to have reflected that such policies would create more government bureaucracies with all their usual uninterested, self-serving, obstructive, careless, anti-social ineffectuality and hostility to enterprise; their endless flex leave, and recreation leave, and sick leave, and holiday leave, and bludging, and sending each other funny emails, and arranging their car insurance at work, and chatting about their holidays, and morning tea, and going to conferences, and not giving a shit about the actual productive enterprise and labour they are strangling to death.

    Having no policy on global warming is not only good in principle. It would probably also have certain pragmatic advantages. I have read and heard quite a number of views which are just as skeptical as mine. One letter to the editor recently ridiculed the ‘mass hysteria’, and said we were all behaving ‘like village idiots’. Another writer ridiculed the pretensions of the G8, and asked them to adjust the temperature of the globe for the convenience of his holidays. Others ridicule the tax or regulatory implications. We should not be stampeded by the herd. By openly expressing skepticism or ridicule, and challenging the void of knowledge and the pretensions of power, the LDP would both distinguish itself in the market for ideas, and provide a focus of support by and for those who find the whole thing dubious or worse.

  65. In politics you want to be close enough to the centre to get votes and far enough away from the centre so as to change things. A minor party can afford to be further from the centre than a major party and in fact there is no real niche for a minor party near the centre anyway.

  66. Fleeced

    It doesn’t ‘feel wrong’ to me, but it would to 99% of the electorate.

    Terje

    Pommy – the planet is not facing imminent destruction.

    Yes, i know that 🙂 My point is that if new evidence were to come to light that moved the argument toward the AGWers, then i don’t believe any governing party would simply announce that the cost of doing nothing is cheaper than the cost of action.

    If that really were the case, the people might start to wonder what the point of politicians were. And we couldnt have that 😉

  67. Pommy – if the cost of doing nothing was very clearly higher than the cost of doing something then of course it would be stupid to claim otherwise. So I agree with your point but I don’t see it as an overly significant point. On any given issue the voices calling for government inaction are very rarely the loudest ones.

  68. I agree with Terje!
    I’m just writing this because I don’t want Terje to have the last word.
    Q. How long would it take a writer to change a light bulb?
    A. Don’t worry- he’ll get write onto it!

  69. Thanx, turj! That means so much to me. And can you think of a joke to finish with?
    Q. How many priests does it take to change a light bulb?
    A. None, they’ve all got well-oiled lanterns, thank you, Jesus!

  70. A very funny point about having the last word Never let it be said that I was a person who sat like a dumb mendicant in his cave, the grot to his beard repulsive, the alms to his begging bowl his only sustenance, insensible to the pride, nay the glory of verbality extending even to the ultimate opportunity regardless of actual sense.

  71. Late response… and it’s not just for the last word. Justin, you say I didn’t offer an argument for the suggested co2 tax. I think I did.

    If there is no AGW then my policy will lead to no co2 tax, removing the govt spending on energy and lower income tax. So if you think AGW is wrong, you should love my suggested policy.

    If there is AGW then my policy will lead to a revenue, equity, efficiency neutral tax shift that marginally increases the incentive to shift to less carbon-emitting energy sources. And it removes the govt spending on energy. At worst, this has zero impact.

    And the simple reality is that something is going to be done. We can hold hands, turn in circles three times and chant “no no no” in arabic (“lah lah lah”) if we like, but back in reality something is going to be done (and already has been done for the past 10 years). There is no reason to not be in the debate. That would be like refusing to discuss income tax cuts because we only accept 0% as appropriate.

  72. John
    How would measures of the tropospheric temperatures distinguish between anthropogenic and non-anthropogenic warming?

    I think the tax you suggest is better than any of the other political action proposed. I just don’t think political action is warranted.

    You may be right that ‘something is going to be done’. If so, it will be because of all the people who believe that political action is warranted. Unless we know that it fits in with our values as to reason and liberty, the fact that other people are doing it does not, so far as I can see, supply a reason for libertarians to do it.

    Taking a skeptical position *is* being in the debate. The whole area is fast-moving, and affected by fashion and volatility. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a short term there was a swing of consensus in a different direction – just as there was with the 1970s global cooling thing; or as may come from such views as in ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’. Those who are in favour of governmental action are already well-represented. Taking a critical and skeptical stance adds value to the debate, and gives options to those who are critical and skeptical. It also coincides more greatly with the principle and values of liberty.

    Frankly, the whole idea of the nanny state turning its attentions to the control of global anything gives me the heebie-jeebies; let alone something as utterly nebulous as climate. I see far more value in stridently maintaining the principles of human freedom as against the pretensions of fretting statist control-freaks than in trying to propose a different form of tax that concedes what is in issue.

    Having said that, I think that the ideas you have put forward are the best I have seen, assuming what is in issue. I believe we should support them as the best alternative *other* people are putting forward; ourselves should condemn a governmental response as unjustified.

  73. “How would measures of the tropospheric temperatures distinguish between anthropogenic and non-anthropogenic warming?”

    Yeah John. Especially if you cannot find it. Especially if theoretically and in reality its way overmatched by human-induced COOLING via SO2 realise.

    And why would you do it anyway given the chill conditions on the way?

  74. Justin,

    What would you oppose in a strategy such as:

    1. Demand to see all environmental and geoscience raw data and projections. Evaluate these critically.

    2. Analyse the impact of subsidies (to coal etc) and regulation (bias against wind and nuclear) but also the lack of incentives to make electricity distribution more efficient (e.g., the effect of privatisation of power grids).

    3. Liberalise the economy with respect to pollution/efficiency and make an analysis.

    4. If action then and only then passes a cost-benefits test, then tax it emissions linked to climate change and through a futures market, like what Mc Kitrick proposes and offset this to income and consumption taxes.

    So far no climate change proposal has passed a credible CBA, and Government subsidies of polluting technology have not been stopped or lessened. I think the process above is critical and sceptical enough. Nor does it violate or abuse any scientific or economic principles or the disciplines themselves.

  75. Late addition to this issue.

    I normally try not to argue with people who are smarter than me, but I’ll make an exception here. 🙂

    Fleeced/John’s questions are important and helpful logical steps.

    1. Are global temps increasing?

    A lot of people say no. A lot say yes. It seems to me that the overall concensus among the scientific community is a yes. Global temperatures are increasing.

    I’m more than willing to look at any evidence to the contrary, but I’m going to stick with the scientific consensus. Bear in mind that scientists aren’t looking at the temperature one day and the next and saying “yep… warmer”. While it’s a complex system indeed, it’s also possible to see overall trends within that system.

    I’ve seen enough evidence to convince me personally that global warming is real and increasing. I recently watched a documentary with an old man who helped map parts of the Antarctic. They took him back there (he hadn’t been for 60 years or so) and he could barely recognise the place. The ice shelves were missing, they had all retreated by 120 metres or so. This SEEMS to be occurring everywhere. Glaciers are retreating. Pack ice vanishing.

    Yes, it could be just chicken little running around yelling that the sky is warming. But I’m personally convinced. YMMV.

    2. Are humans contributing?

    That’s harder to say. Global warming and cooling has occurred before, at times when humans were not able to take the blame. But the rate and degree of warming now seems much higher than what we’ve seen before, by a significant degree.

    When CO2 presence in the atmosphere is mapped against temperature they map to a great degree. CO2 rises just before temperature rises. I think it’s difficult to blame anything other than human involvement for the increases seen now. Volcanic activity, etc, is relatively stable, geologically speaking, and wouldn’t account for an overall increase.

    Solar, tectonic, etc, these COULD well be factors, especially solar. Unusual solar activity making overall higher temperatures, etc. Possible. I’d like to see more evidence of that before I give up my Occam’s Razor on this one.

    3. Is this a bad thing?

    Rising sea levels are a “given” as a bad thing, assuming the levels really do rise. Increases of flooding in many areas (even if not permanently underwater) would result in death and homelessness for a large number of people. I’m going to go on record and say that’s “bad”.

    The permanent submersion of major coastal cities would cause a refugee crisis of unseen proportions. Home damage by flooding would result in massive increases of insurance claims, having economic effects as well.

    Agreed that sections of Greenland, etc, could be now made arable. But arable doesn’t mean forested. Is “ground that is now warm enough to use” a replacement for land we were already using? Is newly warmed land a replacement for grasslands lost to desert? You can’t replace an ecosystem that simply.

    Aside from the ecological damage there are real lifestyle changes to accept too. As temperatures warm the natural habitat of certain creatures changes. Snow dwelling animals are heading deeper up mountains into smaller ranges, reducing their capacity to breed and feed. Lowland animals are able to head further up, expanding their ranges. It’s easy to just say “so it’s all balanced then!” but that’s not balance. All the tigers dying out so that there can be more moths, for example? (That’s an illustration. Please don’t critique it.) I live in Queensland, and I’ve heard from people a little further north that Irukanji and Box Jellyfish are now being found in numbers far further south than their “habitat” is supposed to be. The waters are warming and allowing them to move further south. Do you want Box Jellyfish on Brisbane beaches? I don’t.

    While I may just seem like a hippy to some, I think there’s some merit to the opinion that “slightly warmer tundra” isn’t really worth all that much compared to the possible losses, ecologically, economically, and in terms of our lifestyle.

    Frankly I’ve yet to see much compelling evidence of good.

    4. Assuming it’s bad, could we do anything?

    That’s the question. What CAN be done? I would have thought that the first places to start are cars, which contribute massively to pollution, with a general move to hydrogen, and other fuel sources, or at the very least more efficient cars. SUV much?

    Secondly power generation. Nuclear. Solar. Wind. Tidal. These are options. The moves towards fluro bulbs are positive steps, though probably trival in their actual effect. I know I’ve replaced my bulbs with them as they’ve blown. Of course… I also leave my dryer on… so…

    If there’s ANYTHING that can be done it’s at a governmental level. While individuals can (and should) do what they can that actually achieves anything, such as buying more reasonable cars, or driving less, goverment policy can make significant lasting changes.

    That being said, Aust is a negligable contributor to global warming. 🙂

    5. Is cost action

  76. whoops… didn’t like my <. Sorry.

    5. Is cost action < cost inaction

    That actually depends on how you define “cost”. There are always financial costs, but many of them are relatively neutral. Powersaving bulbs, for example. They cost more initially, but hardly to any significance, and the cost pays back after… what… 3 years?

    Investment in research for alternative methods might well be also be cost neutral, if not positive. Building nuclear power stations, for example, would create jobs. And running them would save on coal, etc. Research into solar technologies could yield EXPORTABLE technologies, if we moved fast. Australia’s a massive desert island in the sun. Why do we NOT lead the world in solar technology?!

    As for the cost of inaction.. I listed a lot of that above. My only point is that not all costs are financial. I don’t want my son to grow up with Tigers and Dodos in the same book.

    6. Prioritise: Even assuming net benefit at point (5), would this money still be better spent somewhere else?

    This is a bit of a misleading question. Somewhere else than what? I’m not saying the government spend billions to “fix” global warming. I do think there are positive steps we can take towards a more sustainable future. I DO think more should be spent on health and education… but those are unrelated issues.

  77. Matt – The long term trends revealed in the ice core data shows that temperature and CO2 are correlated. However they very clearly show CO2 changes lagging the corresponding change in temperature by about 700 years. Your assertion that CO2 historically leads temperature is simply wrong. CO2 has historically been a follower.

  78. I went by what I knew to be true. Not necessarily what is ACTUALLY true. 🙂 I’ve been unable to find conclusive evidence for either, and the only info I can find are ice core drillings which DO seem to confirm your view, so I’ll accept that.

    That’s hardly crushing, however. I still believe (as do 99% of people) that the Earth is warming, and people are responsible. I’m not by any means suggesting that being in the majority makes me right. On the contrary, it makes me nervous. 🙂

  79. Mark Hill

    To answer your questions out of order: what would I oppose about?…:

    2. Analyse the impact of subsidies (to coal etc) and regulation (bias against wind and nuclear) but also the lack of incentives to make electricity distribution more efficient (e.g., the effect of privatisation of power grids).

    I wouldn’t oppose this. I think we can conclude from first principles that the impact of subsidies of coal have been to bias consumption in favour of coal as against other fuel sources. Therefore we don’t need to analyse it, apart from applying a standard Austrian critique to it. To my way of thinking, the only possible reason for using government to make a certain kind of service happen, is because those in favour of it knew that if they didn’t use compulsion, it would not have happened. Thus the very fact of governmental intervention tends to support a conclusion that it makes things less efficient, compared to what would otherwise have obtained by the voluntary action of the population.

    3. Liberalise the economy with respect to pollution/efficiency and make an analysis.

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean here. I have heard two classes of libertarian view. The first says that any governmental regulation of pollution should *not* be by way of command and control regulation: enforcing arbitrary limits etc. It should be by mimicking the action of markets, for example, by selling permits to pollute which can be traded on the open market and thus let competition find the more efficient usage. I would be more in favour of such liberalisation than I would be in favour of governmental command-and-control regulation.

    The second way is more radical and skeptical. It denies the ability of governments to know what is needed to be known in the first place. Yes, we know pollution is bad. But we don’t know whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. All that pollution is the downside of an upside: a larger quantity and quality of human life, health and happiness that would not otherwise have taken place. Who are we, with our first-world standard of living, to look down on and gainsay someone else’s life or child or health, and say there’s a higher value they should have preferred?

    According to this radical view, there is no set of values over and above human interests. The ‘environment’ means nothing more nor less than all the chemical elements and compounds of the entire earth and universe. The very fact that human beings have moved one set of chemical elements from here, to there, – (‘pollution’) – itself shows by definition an improvement in the environment, since the only reason humans have done it is to put the environment into a better configuration for the human enjoyment of life, health and happiness. There is no intrinsice value in the tiger, native vegetation or the climate. Those who want to save them are merely expressing their own particualr human values. And there’s nothign wrong with that. What is wrong is trying to use organised violence in order to force other people to pay for those values. Rather, those who hold such values should have to do what everyone else does to acheive their values – *pay the costs* . Instead, the environmental movement persists in trying to force everyone else pay the costs of their own values and opinions, and calls it ‘the public interest’, ‘the environment’ and so on.

    Thus, according to this view, governmental action is not justified: those in favour of a particular value should pay their fellow human beings whatever it takes for them to do, or not do, what they want. While ever the voluntary mode of obtaining social co-operation remains untried, there is no justification for the use of compulsion, nor therefore of government.

    According to this more radical view, ‘liberalise the economy with respect to efficiency/pollution’ means nothing more nor less than getting government out of any kind of dictating of environmental standards.

    I don’t know where I stand on this one. On the one hand I think it would result in ‘negative externalities’. On the other hand, I’m not sure that the concept of negative externalities is intellectually sound, since it could be extended to justify totalitarian powers because there are negative externalities in every area of life.

    4. If action then and only then passes a cost-benefits test, then tax it emissions linked to climate change and through a futures market, like what Mc Kitrick proposes and offset this to income and consumption taxes.

    I am not an economist and have not studied cost benefit analysis, except at a very basic level. I am suspicious of cost-benefit tests, for a number of reasons. The value of any given thing is subjective, so how are the analysts going to know all the relevant cost and benefits? Secondly, when we are talking about ‘public goods’ how is one to know and weigh up the value of the private and public aspects. It just smells too much like voodoo to me.

    I reject the idea of doing a cost-benefit analysis, then taxing emissions linked to climate change and futures market. The thing is so full of unknowns, unknowables, enormous complexity, volatility, fashion, the presumption of the god-like wisdom of governments, the potential for vested interests, and the potential for unintended consequences, that all I can do is think of the author of the book of Isaiah when he cried out ‘Behold: all is vanity and vexation of spirit’.

    I mean let’s just cut through all the bullshit and ask directly: why don’t all these officious meddlers just stop trying to forcibly improve everyone else, and just themselves stop using coal, electricity, petrol, electric light, air conditioning, heating, computers, and telephones? Oh that’s right. Because they are so concerned about important matters. Because they’re on a mission to save the world. Give us a break. It’s bullshit, and it should be called as such. If they were right that government has the ability to engineer all this, it would have had the ability to engineer the Russian economy. It’s the same crap in a different guise.

    ‘So far no climate change proposal has passed a credible CBA, and Government subsidies of polluting technology have not been stopped or lessened.’

    Enough said. Government is the biggest single polluter, and has for the last hundred years, literally forced everyone else into paying for coal-fuelled electricity, which they now tell us is the biggest problem in the world . They have no credibility whatsoever in managing energy or pollution, and if they would stop using force against everyone, we would soon find that they would go out of business pronto. Not much of a recommendation, is it?

    1. Demand to see all environmental and geoscience raw data and projections. Evaluate these critically.

    The problem with this, is that it presumes that we hold our liberties conditional on the technicians’ analysis of the ‘environmental and geoscience raw data and projections’. But there are more fundamental questions that need to be answered before we even get to the stage of justifying governmental involvement. The fact is, technicians are incapable of dictating policy conclusions, because science is incapable of supplying value judgments. Science is constantly misused in the debate as presumptively validating something – the use of compulsion – which it is intrinsically incapable of validating. We need to de-voodoo-ise the use of science.

    I would rather see this changed to “demand that the use of compulsion to achieve satisfaction of individual or social values be banned in any case where it is not necessary to deter or prevent aggressive behaviour, whether in relation to climate change, or any other issue. Demand that all social action be based on individual liberty and consent.”

    I remember having a conversation with my father when I was a green sympathiser. I said to him ‘But why should not the government forcibly override private liberties and property for the sake of the environment?’

    That wise old man replied ‘Because. Environmental problems kill you slowly. Fascists kill you quickly.’

    There is far more reason to apprehend the adverse consequences of governmental action on climate change, than of climate change.

  80. “I don’t know where I stand on this one. On the one hand I think it would result in ‘negative externalities’. On the other hand, I’m not sure that the concept of negative externalities is intellectually sound, since it could be extended to justify totalitarian powers because there are negative externalities in every area of life.”

    The argument is that in 2. Government action actually contributes to externalities, so in 3. we remove them, therefore in 4. there are less benefits in action and if intervention is made, the insane position of taxing an externality whilst imposing other taxes or regulations which cause that externality is avoided.

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