The Young Liberals are calling for young aussies to participate in nine months of compulsory national service.
Under the plan, young Australians could do their service overseas, working in foreign aid and development, either in programs run by the Australian government or helping non-government bodies such as the Red Cross or Doctors Without Frontiers.
The domestic option would enable people to serve in hospitals, old age homes and other community organisations.
Participants could also have the option of working and studying in various trades including plumbing and electrical.
No mention of fighting wars I notice. I wonder what would happen to the unpatriotic rabble that refuse?
Young Liberal president Noel McCoy said the aim was to provide a sizeable low-cost workforce that would help to offset the effects of the financial crisis.
At the same time he said it would help instil a work ethic and sense of national pride in young people.
The problem with right wingers is that they believe that the worlds ills can be solved by injecting citizens with the right morality. In this regard they are as bad as the Greens.
It also seems that they believe the world owes them a low cost workforce. Although ironically low cost work is illegal, a position supported by the grown up Liberals and the ALP. In any case whos interest is this enforced low cost workforce supposed to serve. It seems to me like perverted right wing logic.
Australian Libertarian Society (old site) 
The problem with right wingers is that they believe that the worlds ills can be solved by injecting citizens with the right morality. In this regard they are as bad as the Greens.
In 11 years Howard was PM, we never had the threat on such things as the Internet we have now by Conroy’s proposals. What’s more are you must be really having us on to imply that Turnbull is a social conservative.
The liberals have some bad points but to compare them to the mentally impaired Greens is laughable in the extreme. It’s an absolute absurdity.
It also seems that they believe the world owes them a low cost workforce.
Do they? Was Workchoices a deliberate attempt to create a low cost workforce or was it an attempt to free up the labor markets?
Although ironically low cost work is illegal, a position supported by the grown up Liberals and the ALP. In any case whos interest is this enforced low cost workforce supposed to serve. It seems to me like perverted right wing logic.
Terje, I reckon you need spend less time at lefty sites as it seems to be affecting your judgement.
The problem with right wingers is that they believe that the worlds ills can be solved by injecting citizens with the right morality. In this regard they are as bad as the Greens.
Now there’s an odd bit of reasoning. The problem with right wingers is that they are like left wingers.
Everyone has their own version of the “right” morality. The real problem is that so many people think their morality ought to be imposed on others by coercion. The morality is not the problem, it’s the coercion.
“In 11 years Howard was PM, we never had the threat on such things as the Internet we have now by Conroy’s proposals. What’s more are you must be really having us on to imply that Turnbull is a social conservative.”
Two years ago: “Howard on internet porn crusade”
‘JOHN Howard is going to spend $189 million on “cleaning up the internet” for Australian families, blocking pornography, upgrading the search for chat-room sex predators and cutting off terror sites.’
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22218715-15306,00.html
Sounds mighty familiar.
Access card / National ID:
“On 26 April 2006, the Prime Minister announced that the “Australian Government has decided to proceed in principle with a new access card for health and welfare services”. However, the so-called Access Card system is, in effect, a national identity card system and should be opposed as such.
The Access Card project was subsequently abandoned by the newly elected Labor Government in December 2007.” – http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Privacy/accesscard.html
Don’t worry, it will be back aswell shortly.
“The liberals have some bad points but to compare them to the mentally impaired Greens is laughable in the extreme. It’s an absolute absurdity.”
The left wing are just as bad as the right wing. Both are collectivist. Both are a false paradigm.
JC – I’m going to buy a nice shiny hammer and sickle.
MichaelC
You left out the bit where that the cabinet felt such a thing was also unworkable and decided not to proceed. Furthmore their restrictions were never as totitarian as Conroy’s.
Let’s understand one thing pretty clearly. As far as silly conservatives can be with their approach at times, their philosophy didn’t kill 100 million people last century.
The GOP and Bush were spendthrift however they didn’t propose 1 trillion bailout package for the economy while the left wing press applauds such a sham as courageous as it is currently doing now.
There are degrees on coercion and to suggest conservatives are equally as bad as the left is absurd.
What’s even more absurd is Terge’s suggestion that the Liberal’s appear as bad as the Greens. This is coming from a guy who thinks he learned “economics” from a person who thought the gassing of the Kurds by Saddam was an accident. So no wonder mentally impaired individuals like the Greens appear the same as the Libs. Yep, Turnbull sure appears to resemble human waste like Bob Brown. Who would have thought that until I read it here.
———————-
perhaps you ought to, Terje.
JC — when Terje mentioned a low-cost workforce he wasn’t talking about WorkChoices. He was talking about the YLs comment that they want to create a compulsory cheap work force.
If having a cheap workforce is a good thing, then Nth Korea must be very successful. 🙂
Irrespective of whether the Liberals are better or worse than the Greens, Terje is correct to note that both groups (and pretty much everybody in politics) share the unfortunate desire to “fix” everybody else to make them do the right things.
Yes John, they do have the unfortunate desire to “fix” everything.
However we need to get everything in proportion here because it seems to me that there are far too many people here that seem to regard an RPG as being equivalent to a thermonuclear device.
The liberals, under Howard were meddlesome- far more than needed to be. However to suggest they are somehow comparable to these appalling bunch of clowns is absurd.
Furthermore Terje suggests:
The problem with right wingers is that they believe that the worlds ills can be solved by injecting citizens with the right morality. In this regard they are as bad as the Greens.
That’s such a stupid comment it deserves strong rebuke. To say compare an oxygen thief like Brown to Turnbull who does incidentally demonstrate some libertarian views is truly pathetic.
As for the low cost labor comment. My hunch is the the dude was treading into an area he knows little about and doesn’t understand the concept of free labor markets and what they really mean. I would be more than a little surprised if he suggesting slave labor rates.
oops
I take some of it back, if McCoy really said this he’s an idiot. In any event what they say is not official party policy and never has been.
Young Liberal president Noel McCoy said the aim was to provide a sizeable low-cost workforce that would help to offset the effects of the financial crisis.
I think Terje’s comment is 100% correct.
I said that in my comment, and you seemed to agree with my comment. So I’m not exactly sure which bits you agree with and which bits you thinkg are stupid and pathetic.
I don’t read Terje as saying the Liberals are the same as the Greens. I read him as saying that both right-wingers ane left-wingers want to inject citizens with their “correct” ideas.
I think if asked, Terje would probably say that Turnbull would be a better leader than Brown.
I think you’re perhaps reading too much into Terje’s comments. I guess the reason for this is that you still somewhat self-identify as “right-wing” and so you might feel as though Terje’s comments are aimed partly at you. I don’t think they are. I think Terje would consider you to be a libertarian, and therefore not right-wing in the way the term is commonly understood.
I think Turnbull is a better option because he has more libertarian sympathies than Brown, not because Turnbull is right-wing and Brown is left-wing.
I stopped calling myself right-wing several years ago and find that it helps me to have a more even handed approach to right-wing and left-wing mistakes. Now I’m happy to curse both of their houses. 🙂
I don’t read Terje as saying the Liberals are the same as the Greens.
Yet this is what he said.
The problem with right wingers is that they believe that the worlds ills can be solved by injecting citizens with the right morality. In this regard they are as bad as the Greens.
Anyone even being remotely comapred to the Greens is suggesting they are mentally impaired individuals, as anyone voting for or representing the greens are basically political sociopaths.
I’m not sure why Mr Turnbull, Mr Brown or Internet filtering got dragged into this. However if Internet filtering is the benchmark issue of the day then the email I got from Turnbulls office, after I wrote to express my concerns about Steve Conroy and the Internet filter, was pretty discouraging. On this issue the Greens at least have express clear opposition to the filter. So on this issue I find myself standing with the kermit coloured hammer and sickle people. Sad but true.
However my intention in this article was not to start a discussion about Internet filtering. It was written to pour scorn on the words of Noel McCoy.
This has been proposed before, I wondered for a minute how the young Liberals managed to come up with a new idea all by themselves, until I remembered this.
In any case whos interest is this enforced low cost workforce supposed to serve. It seems to me like perverted right wing logic.
Possibly you should drop the right hatred Terje, what you interpret as “right” is just statist unless you are implying that it is not fascist when the left do it.
I don’t think I’m quilty of “right hatred”. However I don’t think you should be so precious or reflexively defensive of the right-wing. The only significant thing they have going for them is that they are not left-wing. And I don’t see advocating a low paid work force as falling under the banner of “left-wing” rhetoric. So I think I’ll stick by my assertion that it is perverted right wing logic.
Statism is the core problem. However statism isn’t just advanced by the left. The right also advocate statism as clearly shown by this example (unless you’re telling me that being in the Young Liberals and wanting a low paid workforce makes you left-wing).
Terje
The Greens are a statist party of the worst order. To believe they wouldn’t support some sort of internet filtering is preposterous. Even if they say they don’t , they’re lying.
Do they support hate crime laws, criminalization of hate speech? Of course they do, so it takes a very gullible individual to believe they wouldn’t interfere with the internet.
Possibly you should drop the right hatred Terje, what you interpret as “right” is just statist unless you are implying that it is not fascist when the left do it.
There is nothing in libertarian philosophy or political ideals that would even come close to the Greens. Even their decriminalization for drugs is basically a statist policy in that they would have free injecting rooms and free medication.
The only thing I can identify with Greens is that we breath the same air and live on the same planet. That’s about as far as it goes. As I said that party attracts political sociopaths and the mentally impaired..
.I don’t think I’m quilty of “right hatred”.
Show me any piece you have written with a pic equal in tone of young Nazi thugs to somehow resemble the left’s thinking?
However I don’t think you should be so precious or reflexively defensive of the right-wing. The only significant thing they have going for them is that they are not left-wing.
And also the fact that conservative philosophy never killed between 100-200 million people last century in the cause of advancing statism. Your basic understanding of political morality is all screwed up.
The most pernicious laws were imposed by the left in Australia (in Victoria) commonly referred to blasphemy laws or hate crime laws.
And I don’t see advocating a low paid work force as falling under the banner of “left-wing” rhetoric. So I think I’ll stick by my assertion that it is perverted right wing logic.
True enough and the kid is an idiot and economic illiterate for saying crap like that. However promoting restrictive labor laws that artificially hold up wages for the chosen few are equally coercive and just as damaging and just as slave rendering.
Statism is the core problem. However statism isn’t just advanced by the left.
No, but it’s like comparing an RPG to a mini nuke. To suggest the left and the right are equally statist is intellectually vulgar. We currently have the reprehensible Gillard introducing restrictive labor laws back in the country. How would you rate that in your statist meter? She also recently argued that people shouldn’t agitate for higher wages, which is really not that much different to what McCoy was suggesting in lots of ways. So you have a group aligned to a political party promoting vulgar ideas that don’t form part of the party’s policy manifesto and you have the Deputy PM promoting even more coercive policies that will have a detrimental effect and who is also advocating lower wages. What’s worse?
The right also advocate statism as clearly shown by this example (unless you’re telling me that being in the Young Liberals and wanting a low paid workforce makes you left-wing).
See above.
Yes it is and it’s repulsive. However whatever that idiot promotes is not the policy of the party and never has been, I would also suggest that Gillard’s actions I discussed above are even more vulgar.
Terje; I have just demonstrated that the useless bastards plagiarized Obamas policy and unless something has changed since I last looked the big O is a leftie.
If you think that the ideas of the left are worth pinching and you are from the right then obviously either, (a) You haven’t a clue, which is probably the case with the Young Libs, or (b) There is not much difference between the two.
Statism is statism no matter whether it comes from whichever side.
Bear in mind this is NOT Young Liberal Policy.
It has not been passed by any state council of the young liberals nor has it been passed by their Federal Council.
This is simply the personal opinion of the current president in his last 2 days of office.
We shall see how it goes when it is presented as a motion to Federal Council. I suspect most young liberals still believe in freedom.
Other than this one here show me any piece I have written with a pic equal in tone of young Nazi youth (most of whom were probably more boy scout than thug) to somehow resemble the right’s thinking. If you want to establish that I hate the right then surely you need to show some pattern. Good luck with that. All the picture here says it that I think the national service idea smells a little like the NAZI youth movement.
As it is I notice some patterns with you. For instance you didn’t read what I wrote and quoted in this article before formulating your counter arguments. Apparently you thought I was having a go at workchoices. Which was a rather silly inference.
Tim – thanks for the qualification. I’m glad the young liberals have not ratified such a silly idea. Apparently the ALP youth league also toyed with this idea a few years ago. Presumably that used some other rationalisation besides the creation of a cheap work force. Either way the idea sucks.
It’s astonishing that this keeps coming up… I don’t think it has much chance of getting in, but the fact that these dunderheads keep promoting it as something virtuous and desirable is pretty damn frightening.
BTW, I agree with JC that the Libs are a far cry from the Greens. The Young Libs on the other hand are pretty whacky (though I note from Tim’s comment above, that this idea has not been adopted as YL policy, but rather appears to be the president shooting his mouth off)
[i]The only thing I can identify with Greens is that we breath the same air and live on the same planet. That’s about as far as it goes. As I said that party attracts political sociopaths and the mentally impaired..[/i]
Given, the voices of reason are few within our ranks, but I know at least one other libertarian lurking within the crowd. All the young libs (except one) I’ve met up until now have rubbed me the wrong way and refused to even listen to me spout off anything other than than statist anti-logic
Thanks
And damn, I need to learn the tags for this board
No , I didn’t think you were referring to workchoices, Terje. That’s a silly inference to take away.
Not only was the motion defeated, not a single voting delegate supported it so it wasn’t even able to be MOVED.
http://tinyurl.com/cnycgo
With the exception of this motion and one other crazy motion (also unanimously defeated), I think there’d be virtually nothing in the policies proposed that a Libertarian would disagree with to be honest… Young Libs aren’t that wacky these days, despite what the media say…
JC — your first comment references workchoices.
I know plenty of people in the Greens and they are honestly against internet censorship. I don’t know why you would instinctively disbelieve them. That seems like tribalism.
I agree with Jim that the point is “liberal v statist” and not “right v left”. However I disagree with his implicit suggestion that the right-wing is somehow more liberal than the left wing. They both seem thoroughly statist to me, though both have had occasional champions with a liberal bent.
Indeed, I no longer thing “right v left” makes any sense for political philosophy. Instead, I think “right” and “left” represent an attitude or culture, both of which can co-exist with either statism or liberty.
Pre-socialism I think the “left” culture was linked to liberty and the “right” (conservative) culture was linked to statism. From the late 19th century to the late 20th century the “left” culture became linked to statism, while the “right” culture had both elements of statism and liberty. So it made sense for liberty-minded people to sympathise more with the right. But I think that has mostly broken down now.
Many of the right have abandoned liberty. And some on the left have re-discovered elements of liberty. So the right-left distinction is losing importance. Craig Emerson (ALP) is probably the most libertarian MP in Australia.
American libertarians have been able to forge their own identity, separate from both left and right. I hope that the Australian libertarian movement can move in that direction too.
John – I still think it much better if the ‘right’ just all become libertarian 🙂
After all, Australia doesn’t have the religious right socially authoritarian big govt movement the US has to contend with. I still believe it’s possible 🙂
Steve – what YL’s were these?
I know plenty of people in the Greens and they are honestly against internet censorship. I don’t know why you would instinctively disbelieve them. That seems like tribalism.
I’ll rely on their party manifesto which tell us what they believe in and free speech isn’t one of them if they support hate and thought crimes laws. It seems obvious to me that if they support these laws they would have to support internet censorship.
If Emerson was true to his beliefs he would leave the party like Costa did. No libertarian would ever belong to a party that is doing to labor and capital what Gillard and that other clown (Swan) is trying to pull.
My reference to workchoices was to show what last major liberal party policy was towards labor markets and it wasn’t ” cheap labor”.
terje seemed to somehow suggest that McCoy’s expressed view was official party policy.
I also mentioned it to show that McCoy’s opinion would have little impact on official party policy.
Here’s a question:
Can any of you name one single pro-market policy the ALP has initiated implemented? For that matter can you show one single policy the Greens support through their party manifesto that is pro-market?
I can’t think of one.
Terje, liberalizing the wheat market was initiated and was going to be implemented by the Liberals.
Compare and contrast that to the libs.
The idea that somehow the ALP and the Greens have policies that are sympathetic to libertarian ideals is delusional.
Let’s understand whom the real enemy of freedom and free markets are. The onslaught against free market in the past 12 months has never stronger since the time of Whitlam.
Here’s Swan attacking free market with impunity.
WAYNE Swan has attacked opponents of state intervention in the free market as “false prophets”, arguing that the global financial crisis justifies the need for government regulation to protect the public good.
The Treasurer has urged policy-makers around the world to seize the opportunity presented by the crisis to craft a new “global economic order” by implementing a wave of reforms that will lay the foundations for renewed economic prosperity.
Mr Swan made the comments early today in a speech to business people in New York. He said the collapse of global credit and stock markets had been caused by “spectacular regulatory failure” that had exposed the folly of the view among some policy-makers and commentators in recent decades that the state had no role in the free market.
“Recent events have exposed such thinkers as false prophets,” Mr Swan said. “Our best approach is not to dismiss government, but to develop a coherent and modern view of the role of the state in an open economy.
“In this regard, most nations now agree the modern state has an important role to play in helping people to face up to the consequences of globalisation.”
Mr Swan said governments must provide a strategic framework to deal with serious market failures through intelligent regulation and market design.
He said the market remained the most powerful tool to allocate resources and create wealth, but the state must respond when the market failed.
Since global credit and stock markets began to deteriorate last year, the Rudd Government has allocated up to $36billion in economic stimulus packages and accelerated public works, as well as guaranteeing all bank deposits. And it contributed $2 billion yesterday to a fund to assist owners of commercial property who lose access to foreign credit, saying that failure to act could put 50,000 jobs at risk.
On the international scene, Kevin Rudd has worked through the G20 group of nations and the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation group to press for global reforms in regulation to prevent a recurrence of the economic meltdown. Mr Swan said 25 nations had implemented economic stimulus packages worth about 3 per cent of global GDP since the crisis erupted.
And he said governments must make the best of a bad situation by using the lessons learned to drive a new round of economic reforms.
“It is an opportunity to genuinely rededicate ourselves to the task of building the sort of future economy that nations, their citizens and their environment really need,” he said.
“In the Government’s view, the post-crisis economy does not require an abandonment of the forward-looking goals we were elected to implement, like tax reform, infrastructure modernisation, educational opportunity, social inclusion and building a low-pollution economy. On the contrary, we believe the best response to the immediate and future economic challenges we face is to create an education system that spreads opportunity, a tax system that’s more competitive, infrastructure that builds capacity, and an economy that capitalises on, and contributes towards, the fight against climate change.”
The Treasurer said governments had used the experience of previous economic crises to drive positive reform.
This is actually one of the most important speeches made in quite a while detailing exactly where the present government collective mind is in respect to free markets and globalization. Now normally people shouldn’t spend a second listening to Swan as he is a complete intellectual clown. However he has the second most important job in the country. His boss is no better incidentally.
Contrast and compare Turnbull and his attitude towards markets and we begin to understand who our real enemies are. It doesn’t look as though it’s the libs to me.
However I disagree with his implicit suggestion that the right-wing is somehow more liberal than the left wing.
Interesting comment; My entire position is non statist but from the position of one who would probably fail the “libertarian purity test” on the basis that I am prepared to support the idea that some of those who do not self-identify as libertarian can support freedom. Generally speaking I support the statement; “They both seem thoroughly statist to me.”
From the late 19th century to the late 20th century the “left” culture became linked to statism, while the “right” culture had both elements of statism and liberty. So it made sense for liberty-minded people to sympathize more with the right. But I think that has mostly broken down now.
While at the further out areas of left/right thinking there tends to be little difference in thinking as regards the relationship between the state and the individual, the left or liberal elements tend to believe in the infallibility of the state from their first leanings in that direction. (That is of course when the state is not conservative.)
The left are unable to even take a principled stand on abortion that is supportable by libertarians. They usually insist that it should be provided as a free service by the state and generally want criminal sanctions against doctors who for reason of conscience refuse to carry them out. In the UK a doctor can be deregistered for counselling patients the wrong way.
Leftism is a thought pattern that is based on the perception that we are creatures of the state and not individual, sentient, independently minded beings, and is in some ways probably a form of mental disorder. They seem to want to go from their mothers arms to the comforting arms of nanny state, and is probably therefore a failure to separate from the nurturing phase of childhood into proper adulthood.
This probably explains the reason why even in their 50s they still throw tantrums when opposed, like Robert F Kennedy Jr. does in regard to GW ‘deniers’ calling them “corporate toadies,” and calls them traitors who should be charged with treason.
Kennedy is also the anti-science left -wing zealot that will end up killing countless kids. He has argued strongly against vaccination which is about as anti-science anti-human as you can get.
Yes, it’s amazing how people who are so quick to invoke “scientific consensus” on global warming, are often the very same people who are opposed to things like vaccinations, GM-foods and nuclear power.
Young Liberal president Noel McCoy said the aim was to provide a sizeable low-cost workforce that would help to offset the effects of the financial crisis.
At the same time he said it would help instil a work ethic and sense of national pride in young people.
Incredible. So the Young “Liberal” president supports the reintroduction of slavery* in order to instill “patriotism” in the masses. The connotations couldn’t be any uglier except perhaps if they went and pulled out the red and black armbands and started making Roman salutes.
Drafting people into slavery will only bring otherwise worthy values such as patriotism and hard work and into disrepute, by effectly binding these ideas to the systematic denial of people’s rights. This will only spark a backlash against patriotism and hard-work.
Whoever thought that the reintroduction of slavery would be seriously considered by prominent people in a mainstream party? They can dress up these very offensive ideas with all the soaring rhetoric they want – it doesn’t change the fact that they are rehabilitating a very old and discredited institution that should have been left behind centuries ago.
*Before anyone interjects, the Young Liberal president openly said that this scheme will be compulsory, exactly the same as the incoming Obama administration** before being forced to back down, AND that it will aim to provide cheap labour to boot! That’s the precise definition of slavery, dusted off and repackaged for the 21st Century.
**By the way, in case any Leftist pseudo-non-partisans who might be lurking here wish to jump in and suggest that the Obama administration does not support slavery, I refer you to the following thread in which I comprehensively rebutted the attempts of Obama apologists to pretend that the incoming administration is not a pro-slavery one. Indeed, the Obama camp even claimed, as with the Young Liberal president, that reintroducing slavery would boost patriotism.
http://www.catallaxyfiles.com/blog/?p=3776
Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emmanuel, said, “It’s time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American.“
Steve, if you had read the comments, the entire Young Liberal Movement OPPOSED this motion. It was proposed as a personal opinion by the now former YL president. And was rightly rejected unanimously by the movement. I repeat, not a single young liberal delegate at the Young Liberal Federal Council supported it.
Hi Tim. I never claimed that the Young Liberal movement supported this abominable idea. Read my comment – I explicitly attributed this “policy” to the Young Liberal president.
I will make the following qualifier to my previous comment – I did mention my disgust that slavery would be considered by “prominent people in a mainstream party” in the plural and then followed up my use of “people” with the collective pronoun “they”. This was never intended to mean the Young Liberal movement, but rather referred to the Young Liberal president himself and any of his assumed backers. It is nice to know that the broader movement has rejected these repulsive ideas, decisively.
JC – I don’t really disagree with any of your comments regarding the ALP.
Jim – I was pleased to be able to speak at the LDP conference in favour of your nomination to the executive. Congratulations on your win.
I’m not persuaded that I should apply the terms left or right wing any more or less pajoratively than at present. Sorry about that. I think John is right in suggesting that the libertarian agenda should be independent of either tribe and should recruit actively from both camps (obviously bringing people across whilst leaving errant behaviour behind).
Tim, I’m glad you ppointed out that this ridiculous concept was not only not supported, but not even seconded within the YL party. Nonetheless, it is disturbing that the idiot who suggested it was the (outgoing) president. Prior to this, the last I’d heard it suggested was my One Nation.
Steve is right – he’s proposing slavery. People who support such slavery should be taken out back and shot.
Thanks Terje. I have been in this sort of position before with the PP so I am not certain whether to treat this as an act of friendship, or think you might have gotten even. LOL
Fleeced; Not if they only propose it.
It also seems that they believe the world owes them a low cost workforce. Although ironically low cost work is illegal, a position supported by the grown up Liberals and the ALP.
This is not entirely true, low cost work is legal as long as the person is a second-class citizen.
I.E. A person under the age of 21.
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I’m happy to report that this particular policy motion was so overwhelmingly unpopular that Noel could not find someone to propose it for debate.
Fellow libertarians will also be happy to know that the YL’s also affirmed their opposition to any compulsory internet censorship scheme.
so only one guy proposed this motion, it was so unpopular that it wasnt even debated and it was universally rejected. not that i have any axe to grind, but what does this have to do with the Young Liberals?
Terje – sounds like a cheap shot at right-wingers to me.
It would be like claiming Sheikh Hilali was representative of Sydney’s Muslims..
It was reported in “The Australian” as “The young Liberals” so I don’t think its reasonable to criticize Terje for posting it in those terms. I made the same mistake on my site, but apart from trusting reporters I don’t feel I was wrong to do that. The report gave the impression that it was the organization itself, not some dickhead mouthing off.
Actually some of the stuff that has come out as a result makes me think that some of them may be ripe for the plucking. I assume that some of them have seen our site as a result of this and read some of our stuff so this post may yet yield us results.
Lots of YL’s read this site. Not all of them are conservatives, there are a lot of libertarian people in the organisation.
Most of them however are not interested in joining the LDP until such time as we have reps in parliament.
Pommy – I was guilty of believing what I read in The Australian. The left have for years been warning me against doing this but I failed to listen to them. 😉
Even in narrowing this down to one individual the logic still sounds like perverted rightwing thinking which was my original charge (my apology to the Young Liberals for thinking they could elect somebody that accurately represents them).
We saw similar thinking when John Howard decided that all Aboriginies in NT need government help deciding how to spend money. The rightwing in this country seem just as capable of smothering the poor with socialism (whilst the rest of us enjoy at least a measure of capitalism).
JC is simply wrong in his assumption that my criticism of the right means that I am of the left or that I support the current government. Like a lot of people (here and elsewhere) he is more interested in battling what he infers to be the motive behind an assertion, or else some implied conclusion that was never stated. It would be better in my view to deal with the assertion itself.
The policy suggested by the Young Liberals president was statist and anti-liberty. It was promoted using the cultural logic of the right wing. It may not be representative of everybody that calls themselves right wing but it was not in my view an inaccurate charge. As Tim has pointed out the right wing was on this occasion able to sort out their own. Thank goodness.
Most Young Liberals/ ALSF members are libertarian. Most aren’t interested in joining the LDP. They prefer to act as a libertarian force within a ruling (or opposition) party than to push a minority ideological agenda.
As for left/ right. The terms are a mess anyway. Is ALP “right” still “left” or are they “right”?
As far as I’m concerned “left” politically is defined as pro-poor, pro-minority; “right” is pro-rich, pro-Christian. Neither is pro-freedom on any issue except by coincidence. They just pander to the demographics from which they draw the most votes and the concerns of those demographics. But that’s the only way for a political party to function. Even the ACT Party in NZ picks a demographic and only markets its politics to that demographic- they aren’t CONSISTENTLY pro-freedom.
JC is simply wrong in his assumption that my criticism of the right means that I am of the left or that I support the current government. Like a lot of people (here and elsewhere) he is more interested in battling what he infers to be the motive behind an assertion, or else some implied conclusion that was never stated. It would be better in my view to deal with the assertion itself..
Terje:
You put up a pic of Hitler youth league to symbolize the YL’s which you later suggested was only meant to show boys scouts.
The story also turned out to be a little different from what you first indicated in that it is not YL policy: in fact we find out that it was thrown out.
And if I look for and pick arguments with lefties I do it for a reason as their ideology of collectivism killed around 200 million people around the world last century.
I see those that call themselves social democrats as simply the cowardly ones that don’t really wish to soil themselves with pulling the trigger.
And yes, you do only seem to attack the right.
Let me ask you again, would you show the same pic if you were talking about lefties, as the pic would more closely symbolize their ideology than it does the right?
On the other hand I really don’t see an equal death toll from conservatives. Applying the ” their all the same’ rhetoric is absurd.
“You put up a pic of Hitler youth league to symbolize the YL’s ”
I’m pretty sure Terje meant it to symbolise the compulsory national service called for by McCoy, not the YLs themselves.
.I’m pretty sure Terje meant it to symbolise the compulsory national service called for by McCoy, not the YLs themselves.
this is what he said in the very first sentence.
The Young Liberals are calling for young aussies to participate in nine months of compulsory national service.
Um, yes. That supports my assumption.
Think of it this way – did the HY ever call for compulsory national service, or were they put into compulsory service by others?
You lost me after, “umm yes”.
Don’t worry about it, JC. All you need to know is, as usual, I’m right and you’re wrong. 😉
Jarrah – yes you are right. JC unfortuantely ties his knickers in a knot occasionally. However don’t worry too much because he is slowly becoming more judisious. A few more times on the merry go round and he’ll be as sweet as pie.
As for lefty sites I spend time at there is only one that comes to mind. And JC spent so much time there trying to convert the masses using his usual charm that he got himself banned. He is just annoyed because I have avoided getting myself banned.